Wayne Besen - Author, Activist, Columnist, Public Speaker

Friday, October 21, 2005

In Edmonds, Wash., approximately 200 people bolted the Edmonds United Methodist Church in 2003 because of its support for an openly gay music director "

"Those of us who agree with the authority of Scripture and traditional Christian doctrine cannot condone a practice incompatible with church teaching," whined Cathy Bihler, who left the church.

It is debatable whether God said we can play with our sexual organs, but nowhere in the Bible does it say gays can't play the organ on Sundays. You know you are an anti-gay bigot when having a gay music director makes you so angry you leave the church.

Sometimes a schism is a good thing. Homophobes bring down spiritual life and confuse hate with holiness. Let them leave the church and find a house of worship where they can handle snakes and say vile things about other people to make themselves feel closer to God.

29 Comments:

I have always thought the same thing, too, Wayne! Sometimes churches should welcome schism, which can be quite successful at separating the wheat from the chaff. By drawing powerful distinctions, church-goers would know what they're getting into when they align themselves with a particular sect. In years gone by, homophobia in the church was a given. I am pleased to see that this is changing and that the world is beginning to leave the homophobes behind.
posted by Chris L., at 10/21/2005 1:29 PM

I agree, schism is often good. Case in point. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, is meeting with openly gay Bishop Gene Robinson later this year. Such a meeting and the fact that the mother church in the UK is allowing its clergy to form civil unions with the church's blessing come December 5, 2005, has already caused the Nigerian branch and others to delete from their ecclesiastic constitutions any reference to the UK church. So yes, schism is often a good thing, long overdue.

Robert, NYC.
posted by Anonymous, at 10/21/2005 2:38 PM

It always amazes me how cafeteria christians justify their bigotry and their actions. I grew up a son of a Southern Baptist minister - believe me thats a whole story unto itself. But if my memory serves me the whole foundation of christianity draws upon the fact that everyone is a "sinner" and that no-one lives a "sin-free" life. Supposedly there was only one such human being that was capable of doing that ... and he was crucified. For this bitty to suggest that she cannot associate herself with a "sinful" lifestyle is the epitome of ignorance of the very faith she proclaims to have.

For many reasons I have long sinced disavowed myself from such hypocrisy and nonsensical beliefs. I have seen how schisms within christian organizations can cause pain and emotional damage for families and friends.

Funny, how religion causes more death, destruction and despair than any other belief system on the planet. I think the human race will be better off when we grow out of our need for these fairy tales and learn how to treat each human being with dignity, respect and love for one another despite their so-called "religious beliefs". I don't need a organized religion to teach me that!

--
Paul, Houston TX
posted by Anonymous, at 10/21/2005 4:33 PM

Paul, a big atheistic "amen" to that. I totally agree that there is nothing more destructive than religion on this planet other than a blatant disregard for the environment that our governments and big industry have. We're reaping the rewards of this in the Gulf of Mexico and a melting polar icecap along with our smog drenched cities. The whole concept of sin is complete bullshit anyway...why is it that "christian" sins are not acknowledged but better make sure those heathen homosexuals stay marginalized and stigmatized.
posted by BC WaterBoy, at 10/21/2005 9:54 PM

I'm not an atheist, but agree that most religions have done a lousy job of elevating men and women and providing a route to true spirituality.
And yes these sanctimonious assholes who are constantly projecting their own miserable inner selves on Gays dont follow the bible either. They usually revert back to the Hebrew bible as an excuse for attacking us (Leviticus). But if they truely followed it themselves, they would all be eating kosher food only (can you imagine a southern baptist given up their beloved Schweinfleisch). They would also not be eating shellfish, wearing red, nor clothes made from two or more different fabrics and menstruating women would have to be put outside of the tribe (house/church?) These people need to separate the wisdom (and religious scriptures DO contain some) from the antiquated BS (unfortunately there's loads of that too!)
Gary (NJ)
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posted by BC WaterBoy, at 10/22/2005 10:20 AM

All religion = bigotry, period!

Robert, NYC.
posted by Anonymous, at 10/22/2005 10:26 AM

Fuck straight people.
posted by Christopher, at 10/22/2005 10:31 AM

Note that there are no schisms in mainstream Jewish communities over gay people anymore. If there were, they weren't this profound. Not even close.
No schism happened with the ordination of women or gay rabbis and cantors.
No such thing happened among Buddhists either.

Well, Christianity, Mormonism and Islam are newer belief systems compared to the others.
And these Christian and Muslim religions didn't gain their numbers by being nice.

Jews are fast learning they can't afford to leave out their vital sons and daughters.
They've gone to the table to let GAY people tell their story and Jews have found no reason to doubt what gay people say.

The most outspoken anti gay Jew I've heard of is Dennis Prager, and he's not speaking to me anymore because of my support for gay equality.
The break came when I reminded him that his son was of age to serve his country in combat.
But that it was immoral of Dennis to vilify gay soldiers, to serve in silence or be discharged as he and his son enjoyed the affluent fruits of the labor of gay soldiers for HIS lifestyle.

Just as whites had no right to ignore the committed talent of black soldiers who served but couldn't benefit from equality at home, he was committing the same sin against gay people serving his and his family's comfort and freedom with their sacrifice.

Some people just can't handle the truth.
They like their bigotry because it bears no risk or sacrifice and takes no courage to maintain.
I don't care if Dennis stopped speaking to me because of what I said.

I don't care about this woman and her abandonment of her church and it's musical director.

I thought what mattered is a heavenly voice and the musical talent that is god given...evidently God gives this gift to gay people too.

And if God ain't discriminating, why should they?
posted by Regan, at 10/22/2005 5:55 PM

As a member of the Edmonds church sited in the NY times article, I can tell you that our church has only improved with the exit of the (not even close to ) 200 members. Our church is finally on the right track and looking outward with open arms. We are much more about helping others than just working within the own confines of our church walls. The church has a website, you should check it out! See how many areas we are looking to improve our world and not just ourselves. This sort of outreach was not happening before the "exit". Too much infighting between the "liberals" and the "conservatives". The energy and life within our church now is palpable and you should hear our choir!
posted by Anonymous, at 10/23/2005 12:16 AM

This is so sad when Christians are being slandered for trying to obey the Bible. I agree that homosexuality should not treated any different that any other sin BUT I wouldn't want a openly fornicating pianist either... it's a matter of whether the person is living in open and unrepentant sin. But I see that on this site one is a "bigot" if they do what they think is right. Funny, aren't you being bigoted by calling them bigoted just because they don't meet YOUR standard. You smell that? It's hypocrisy!
posted by I say, I say..., at 10/28/2005 1:38 PM

i am one of the former members of edmonds umc. my family chose to leave for reasons much different than those you describe in your article. the issue edmonds was really dealing with was not the reality that a sinner was playing organ no sundays, but that no one was willing to openly discuss controversial subjects. the members, liberal, conservative, and moderate as they were, could not come to a place where they could sit down and discuss why they believed what they believed. this would not be so terrible if it did not include the fact that the senior pastor of the church refused to give any guidance biblically or personally and waffled from position to position three times concerning the broader issue of sin in the church. personally, i left the church because they refused to obey god. as christians god saves us by grace from our sin and we in return are called to respond in passionate obedience to him. the two greatest commandments are two love god and your neighbor. to love them means to desire the best for them, to be willing to give for and to them, to serve them as a servant leader as christ did, to care for them as people regardless of what struggles they may face in life. hate the sin, not the sinner. a healthy response to sin in another's life is not anger, but prayer and gentle discussion. i resent the fact that you entitle all of us as "bigots", some left because of intolerance and disrespect others left because we have been called to obey and love those around us which was impossible to accomlish when all people wanted to do was shut up or scream verbally and in written letters. and honestly, is there a higher calling than to love one another no matter what??? my heart breaks for eumc and i still pray for and keep in touch with many of the present and past members. the music direct a was sinner, but so are we. i honestly wish that the entire scenario had not occurred. after attending the church since my birth and having a three genration history with eumc it breaks my heart to think that we could not love one another. i am not pointing fingers at anyone, but i do recognize that we all had a part to play in the split of this beloved family. we are called to be of one body, the body of chirst, and i pray that eumc and those of us that have left have learned to love one another no matter what.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/28/2006 6:04 PM

about 75 adults left, about 150 when you count children. that's not the point though. if the foundation of christianity is love of God and humanity in accordance with God's word then why is no one doing that at edmonds? the united methodist church is more concerned with not hurting anyones feelings while still holding extremist views. the umc is mainline only because methodists can't agree about anything. there is no glue holding them together. Christ is the unity of believers, but when that Christ is rejected (e.g. people do not love and obbey God) how can they truelly love their neighbors? the methodists aren't the only church denomination struggling with the lack of core doctrine (that they abide by, believe in, and agree on), the episcopalians, the lutherans, the presbyterians, the baptists....the list goes on and on. people are forgetting what Christ told humanity to do. when "christians" can't agree on foundational doctrine such as the crucifixion, satan, sin, the virgin birth, the trinity, is God male or female, heresy etc. and they can't seem to love one another then yes, people leave. why stay in an explosive enviroment when church politics are more important than God himself?
posted by Anonymous, at 9/28/2006 7:53 PM

I have been a member of EUMC for quite a while and we did go through some very ugly times several years ago with unpleasantness from conservatives, liberals and moderates alike. People chose to leave for many reasons - I recall one family asking us (as a church) to choose between them and the music director. That's not love; it's bias. (The Triune God, Virgin Birth, the Resurrection of Jesus and other basic Christian beliefs have been preached from the pulpit since I began attending EUMC, so I don't know what Sunday the previous poster was dreaming through.)
The problem with being liberal is that liberals allow people to have their own beliefs and are shocked when others condemn them for it. No two people will have exactly the same beliefs or points of view. Just ask a sibling about one of your cherished childhood memories and you will realize they saw the event completely different. Life is full of shades of gray because we are thinking human beings. God didn't just give us the black and the white, he gave us the gray as well.

The feeling now at EUMC is of wholeness and healing. We have increased our outreach programs to the community and the world with both service and monetary gifts. Our Food Bank -run by volunteers, for the most part- serves hundreds of families on a weekly basis without questioning need or the status of their souls. They offer food, cleaning supplies, sometimes clothing and prayer, if it is asked for. They show by example God's love for them and the world. We have had numerous mission trips taken by people of EUMC, from children to senior adults. We have instituted a practice of offering "alternate giving" at Christmas, sharing monetary gifts to local, national and international causes in memory or in honor of loved ones instead of heading to the mall. Those who say we are doing nothing to show God's love and are not living according to God's word are mistaken.
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