Thursday, February 23, 2006
(Jason Thompson Misleading Clients?)Ex-gay groups are so desperate for success stories that they pretend that people who have failed are actually success stories. The American Family Association continues to
sell a video "It's Not Gay," featuring Michael Johnson, the barebacking HIV positive former "ex-gay" posterboy.
Next, the "ex-gay" sham group
Exodus International refused to take
Shawn O'Donnell off their web-site for months, even though he begged them to do so, because he is now an ex-ex-gay.
And now, Exodus International and its Oregon ministry
Portland Fellowship are highlighting the
testimony of Phil Hobizal. He is the former leader of the Portland group who stepped down in 2003 after the ministry's newsletter claimed he had an "emotional entanglement."
In the rosy testimony of Hobizal that is now on the site, there is no mention of his latest failure and the reason he stepped down from the head of a ministry he ran for 15 years. I asked his replacement, Jason Thompson, why he was potentially misleading his clients, and he refused to answer. Mr. Thompson should know that deceiving clients is unseemly and unchristian. If Mr. Hobizal had a recent fall, it should be mentioned in his testimony.
The whitewashing of Hobizal's tale and that of others, shows that these failed groups are so desperate to show success that they will use the testimony of people who are not as straight as Exodus claims they are.
39 Comments:
Wayne,
There are plenty of ex-gays out there who've not backslid.
Have you ever had the chance to talk with them?
posted by , at
2/23/2006 9:28 AM
I don't know about Wayne, but I've talked to plenty of "ex-gays" who haven't backslid - until we stopped talking and got down to business, that is.
What I've never done is talked to an "ex-gay" who had no sexual desires for men. Let's see, what's the word again for guys who have sexual desires for other guys?
posted by , at
2/23/2006 9:38 AM
Tom, then meet Tom (Cole). This was his interview in Southern Voice, a GLBT paper, back in 2001. He was director of Reconciliation ministries in Detroit for nine years...now he and his wife and four kids moved to Kansas City where he's on the staff at International House of Prayer. (BTW, some very trustworthy (and very gay) people I know know Tom a lot better than I, and say he doesn't ping their 'dar, for what that's worth).
FWIW, Tom also has merited a positive page at exgaywatch.com. He's also said that, prior to falling in love with his wife and going through therapy to leave his gayness, he had no sexual attraction to women whatsoever.
Or how about Dennis Jernigan, formerly gay, now married with nine kids. I've seen this guy...you want to talk about someone who can bring an evangelical church to a complete halt with his testimony (especially when he warns them to watch their words as he talks about how hurt he was as a young boy, questioning whether he was gay, when "men" in his rural Oklahoma Baptist church made hateful comments about GLBT people) it's him.
Wayne, from your comments on polygamy last week you sure seem aligned with a evangelical Biblical worldview...that man was intended for monogamy and not polygamy.
Seriously, I'd love to see an interview or book where you talk with ex-gays like these men, Wayne, who appear to be very happily loving one wife (and one woman) exactly as God intended them to. And if you come to the conclusion that they were never really gay to begin with, given their testimonies I'd be very interested to learn the logic you used for that deduction.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 10:27 AM
If there is one thing we know about "ex-gays" is that those that proclaim they have changed often have not. To simply trust their tales - considering the history of these groups - is to be a sucker and a dupe - or have an agenda.
George
Maine
posted by , at
2/23/2006 10:49 AM
ok, this world's diversity is beyond our imagination. Granted that there may be some people out there who deprive themselves from their true desires, remember, the fear of "hell" or "punishment" is real.
But if we look closer I can ask a question that people may want to answer to themselves honestly:
How many of us have had sex whith someone who identify himself as "hetherosexual"?(which on theory is about having sex with the oposite gender; or, How many of us have had sex with women and ID ourselves as "Gay"? or have only sex with men and ID ourselves as "bisexual"? (remember boy george in the 80's?); for me the same thing apply to those who call themselves "ex-gays". Been an "ex-gay" is more about the fear to face onself as a indivisual in a universe that is constructed and dominated by an idea of masculinity that, at this point in time is rather proper of underdeveloped social groups. "Truth will set you free", true, but once you are truth to yourself and your own emotions, other responsibilities come along... it requires a huge ammount of courage and strnght to be gay in the current world, but is possible. At the same time, it is just "natural" (so to speak) that once a himan being feels tratened his environment, he/she may react in a rather animal way, and try to use anything at hand in order to protect he/herself and get convince that the reality is different than it really is.
The power of fear is bigger that we think... now, that some people overcome that fear and decide to challengee the status Q, and accept and love themselves as gay individuals is a beautiful, wonderful thing; "truth set us free" but we are not perfect. being gay requires a level of maturity that can not be injected, or administered to people through pills, it is a matter of intelectual and emotional maturity.
In that sense, I kind of understand (while I don't coondone) the fact that some people claim that homosexuality is a choice... It may be a "choice" in the sense that -again- spiritual, intelectual and emotional maturity help us to come to terms with who we really are.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 10:57 AM
Anonymous, not one of us has the power of mental telepathy...we don't know what's going on in other people's minds.
For all we know, every human being has fantasized about both same- and opposite-sex relationships.
What I was saying was that the two men (and there are many more like them out there) in my link not only seem sexually happy with their wives (Rev. Mel "Soulforce" White, in his autobiography, admits that apparently he and HIS wife (before he left her) had an enjoyable sexual relationship), but also romantically happy.
If a 100% gay man falls in love with a woman, marries her and finds he indeed is quite romantically and sexually happy, and would prefer to spend his life with her more than any other (and indeed has no secret lust toward men any more)...I would like to see Wayne write a book on these men. I think it could be fascinating.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 11:17 AM
Is that International House of Prayer in Kansas city connected to the International House of Pancakes by any of chance?
Gary (NJ)
posted by , at
2/23/2006 11:20 AM
Gary, interesting question.
How 'bout another one?
If ex-gay testimonies are such nonsense, why do stories such as "Brokeback Mountain" seem to so emulate them?
In the original Annie Proulx (sic?) short story which inspired the movie, Enis' father's idea of nurturing his son was to take him to see a gay man beaten to a dead pulp. Jack's father's way of discipining his son included beating and urinating on him. These poor men sound like walking Exodus testimonials.
Or, since we're talking Oscar-nominated films here, how about Truman Capote? In the most recent book about him, eponymous with the Philip Seymour Hoffman film of the same name, when discussion of his latent childhood homosexuality comes arises, the author strangely mentions how people around him believe he consciously chose aspects of his sexuality. For instance, his fourth grade teacher said it was eerie to watch him talk as a grown man...that his voice was the same in his adult interviews as it was in her classroom, and that she felt he'd made a decision to not grow up and out of whatever state of mind and emotion he was in as a 9 year old.
(The book also mentions how Capote's father was such a negative, occasional presence in his life, and how Capote rejected and mocked the supposedly kind stepfather whose surname he took.)
posted by , at
2/23/2006 11:45 AM
"eponymous...of the same name".
Sorry for the "double redundant", there. ;)
posted by , at
2/23/2006 11:55 AM
It really is a question of honesty, which sadly is not a part of the religious right agenda. Our core sexuality can be quite different from what we are programmed for. I knew my homosexual feelings existed since I was a child, looking back over my 50 years, yet as a "good Christian" and a budding minister, I knew that I had to be hetero married and have children...so I had six, to prove to me and others that I was straight. My fantasies were always male....so who did I fool? God? This is why this fear and shame technique in the ex-gay "therapy" has no lasting effect.
We are as we are, as God intended.
Peace, Lee
posted by , at
2/23/2006 12:24 PM
And if Truman Capote had been subjected to the ex-gay ministries, we would have lost quite a lot. Thank goodness he had the courage to be authentic!
posted by , at
2/23/2006 12:47 PM
Brokeback Mountain may emulate some "ex-gay" stories for the simple reason that they're both FICTION! Sorry to disappoint you kurt, but i, like most of my gay friends and my life-partner had very happy childhoods with great fathers. Anybody with half a brain would realize that child abuse doesnt 'cause' homosexuality, otherwise we would make up a much larger portion of the population than we do. The APA is quite clear about the fact that you cant change your sexual orientation anymore than you can change your eye color. Of course one can always slap on a pair of colored contacts and *pretend*!
So, kurt, either your a big closet case or a pretend "ex-gay", otherwise you wouldnt be checking this website, obviously more than once a day. No need to respond, I'm finished with this thread.
Gary (NJ)
posted by , at
2/23/2006 2:15 PM
Gary,
Why be finished with this thread...it's fascinating.
Here's another question though...why don't we hear from gay celebrities who are like you, who had great relationships with their Dads? There HAVE to have been some out there...instead, every gay/lesbian person who's been famous enough to warrant a biography or autobiography I've read always seems to have had a strained relationship with their father...maybe not always as bad as Truman Capote's situation, but it shows through when you read their stories.
As for the APA, sir, their former president says the organization is guilty of some "troubling" efforts in regard to the subject of ex-gay therapy.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 2:43 PM
Just for the record, my father and I get along great. I just had dinner with him on Friday. Plus we have been on about sixteen vacations together... just us! We went to Vegas three times. On one of those trips, I secretly bought first class tickets. He thought that was very cool!
We've been to the Dominican Republic once, too. We flew down to Louisiana to see friends four times, and have been to Palm Beach, Miami Beach and Ft. Lauderdale a number of times. And now, we are planning a trip to San Juan in a few months. Again, just he and I!
If you want fathers and gay sons to be close, ignorant fundamentalists must stop injecting society with their shameful homophobic drivel. Then maybe some men wouldn't freak out when they have a gay son or grow distant from him when they pick up those cues when the kid is growing up.
A certain percentage of the population turns out to be gay. Get the f*ck over it already! It's the year 2006 for goodness sakes! You fundies are so incredibly ignorant and small-minded, it's downright amazing. Pick up a science book once in awhile, would you? You are truly an embarrassment to everything decent and holy.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 3:15 PM
Just for the record, my father and I get along great. I just had dinner with him on Friday. Plus we have been on about sixteen vacations together... just us! We went to Vegas three times. On one of those trips, I secretly bought first class tickets. He thought that was very cool!
We've been to the Dominican Republic once, too. We flew down to Louisiana to see friends four times, and have been to Palm Beach, Miami Beach and Ft. Lauderdale a number of times. And now, we are planning a trip to San Juan in a few months. Again, just he and I!
If you want fathers and gay sons to be close, ignorant fundamentalists must stop injecting society with their shameful homophobic drivel. Then maybe some men wouldn't freak out when they have a gay son or grow distant from him when they pick up those cues when the kid is growing up.
A certain percentage of the population turns out to be gay. Get the f*ck over it already! It's the year 2006 for goodness sakes! You fundies are so incredibly ignorant and small-minded, it's downright amazing. Pick up a science book once in awhile, would you? You are truly an embarrassment to everything decent and holy.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 3:15 PM
chris I. you've said so many other elegant and wise things before. I'm very glad you and your Dad get along OK...hope there are many more like you than like the aforementioned folks who've had the problems.
Sadly, that still doesn't change the fact that there ARE no scientific books which explain this subject adequately. Or that there are going to be ex-gay men who've truly been changed and are happily married to a woman for life (just as there are those who do not want to be ex-gay and are happily gay for life).
posted by , at
2/23/2006 3:49 PM
Ignorance and Deception, and Wayne has to be one of the most mean spirited people in the so called 'gay' commmunity.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 3:58 PM
Kurt W.: I think you kind of miss the point of what most gays say about ex-gays. I have no doubts that there are gay men who have managed to fit (force?) themselves into a heterosexual life, or that there are bisexuals (whether they know it or not) who have decided to supress their same-sex attractions, get married, and, thinking they were fully gay, jump on the ex-gay bandwagon.
I also have no doubt that there are straight men who were sexually abused and, as a result, psychologically recreate the scene of the abuse by engaging in same-sex behavior, when, in fact, they are not really gay to begin with. If and when they ever work through it, they understandably believe that their sexual orientation has changed.
Maybe some here would disagree with me, but those are my feelings. But my whole point is that the change isn't "magical" like some in the ex-gay world want to make it seem that it is. John Paulk is a prime example. He married a pretty lady and had kids. But he still found himself in a gay bar after all that. To me, there is just no mystery to it.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 4:07 PM
Chris L. a very reasoned response.
Here's where you and I differ:
"I have no doubts that there are gay men who have managed to fit (force?) themselves into a heterosexual life, or that there are bisexuals (whether they know it or not) who have decided to supress their same-sex attractions, get married, and, thinking they were fully gay, jump on the ex-gay bandwagon."
I noticed that you qualified this as if they HAVE to be suppressing these attractions.
May I ask, Chris...if there are men as chronicled (or probably "as not" given an article linked here a week or so ago) who one were are gay as could be but have lost, not surpressed, but lost whatever it was that made them gay (most likely a deep romantic attraction toward other men)...
How does that affect you in any way (unless they support and join a political group that is opposed to same-sex marriage, etc.)?
Seriously?
posted by , at
2/23/2006 4:29 PM
I agree that as long as they don't become anti-gay, it doesn't bother me in the least.
posted by , at
2/23/2006 4:31 PM
Any examples of "ex-gay" people who don't profit financially from their "ex-gayness?"
posted by , at
2/23/2006 6:09 PM
I love the way this creep brings up Tom Cole as his example. And what will he say when Cole fails? He will blame it on Cole and say "people fall". These con artists have answers for everything.
Before Cole, there was Bussee, Colin Cook, Paulk, Johnston...etc. They come, they go....that is the ex-gay charade. One clown down, bring on the next clown.
Take it from an ex-gay of 15 years (I'm happily ex-ex-gay now!!) there is no such thing as an ex-gay. It is a joke and a sham. The wives of these guys are beards.
Shallow men with shallow lives, who bring other people into their misery and deciet.
The groups that ruined the lives of people like me and hurt the people I brought into my lie are amoral and immoral. They will destory countless people to get their pointless point across - sadly in God's name.
Just accept people are gay and realize there is not a sinle ex-gay on the planet. The fact that these guys are trolling Wayne's web-site proves ex-gay is a lie.
Sam in Phoenix
posted by , at
2/23/2006 6:55 PM
Really good point. All the ex-gays are professinal ex-gays. In order to change, I guess one has to quit his job, run a ministry and be a Republican.
No thanks, I'd rather be gay (and I'm straight)and have a complete, well-rounded life. There is a lot of irony that in order to be an so-called ex-gay - one must immerse himself or herself in homosexual culture - but instead of being an adult and enjoying it, the ex-gay is a child and condemns it.
This ex-gay lifestyle is rather sad and perverse.
Sally, Buffalo
posted by , at
2/23/2006 7:00 PM
An ex-gay says he has changed and therefore it is true...now that is a convinicing arguement if I have ever heard one. Can I stop laughing now?
Oh, and for the buttplug who brought in the father point, all I can say is drop dead and go fuck yourself, you lying, propaganda pushing piece of human shit.
I'm super close to my Dad and he also thinks you are an asshole. Go spread your propaganda on another site. And the Hollywood rejoinder was absurd. Most famous actors - gay and traight - have shitty relationships with parents and spouses. I know, I live in L.A. Damn you people are stupid.
Mark
Los Angeles
posted by , at
2/23/2006 7:11 PM
I would like to see Wayne write a book on these men.
Right...and I'd like to see Alan Chambers write a book about some of the perfectly contented, sexually and romantically satisfied gay men that I personally know. I'd like Alan to write a book about some of the many ex-ex-gays who've bought into the ex-gay snake oil only to end up emotional wreaks. Maybe Alan could interview Jack McIntyre from beyond the grave. That would be fascinating too...don't you?
But...fat chance of that.
posted by Bruce Garrett, at
2/23/2006 9:08 PM
Ex-gay ministries always simplify sexuality to 2 extremes, either 100% gay or 100% straight. But each human being is on a continuum between those extremes. I am probably about 95% gay, and I am in a 29 year relationship with a man. We had a daughter, raised her together, now have grandkids. I mention this only because the ex-gay agenda always convinces these gay people with low self-esteem and a fundamentalist religious indoctrination that they can NOT be happy as a homosexual. They do not give them stories like mine where I've lived in the heart of tract house suburbia all my life, had acceptance from all the neighbors, had my daughter in school, went (with my partner) to her school functions, gave her away at her wedding, etc. JUST LIKE STRAIGHT FOLK! Now, I know the fundies are trying to close the loop holes on that by lobbying to exclude gays from adopting children, but that is part of their innate dishonesty and viciousness, since they know they must fight dirty to make their anti-gay agenda work! But to get back to my original point, since each person is somewhere on that sexual continuum, it doesn't mean much to me if some person claims to be "ex gay" since he may have actually been around 50% gay (a true bi-sexual) or perhaps even 45% gay, so choosing to manifest his sexuality via a female is not a big deal. But I have yet to know any truly gay person that just became straight. The human mind and body just does not work that way! I knew I was gay by 9 years old and already had erections at that age watching hot men on TV. Even now as a 50 year old, my cock does it own "coming out" for me - it gets hard when I see a fantastically handsome young man walking down the street in Phoenix. I assume if I was to play ex-gay, I'd have to cross my legs and torture my cock until it went limp. Then to make love to my wife, I'd have to fantasize about Brokeback Mountain or some hot male scene (magazines I would hide in the garage somewhere).
For the record, many gay men may have a temporary falling out with good old dad in the teen years, if they come out then as I did. It is a big shock for dad to find out his son is gay usually, and that obviously puts great distance between them, at least for a while. It is an effect, not a cause. My dad was also freaked out when my older brother married a Catholic instead of a Lutheran! It took 4 years for him to truly forgive that perversion!!
posted by ArizonaWill, at
2/24/2006 12:30 AM
You simply can't argue with people who base their lives on a book that's thousands of years old, a book they call "infallible", no less. No amount of common sense or intelligent thought (which they see as being from "the devil") can get through to those who would ignore 2,000 years of modern science and history, and call such ignorance being "godly".
They're sort of like the Amish in that sense. If they don't want to use electricity, fine, just let them live in peace. It's when they try to stop everyone ELSE from using electricity that they cross the line. People who believe nonsense are often compulsive in their efforts to get others to accept it. It's characteristic of the fundamentalists.
posted by , at
2/24/2006 12:34 PM
Chris L...thanks for answering my comments earlier on.
And you're right...Wayne will write the book I suggested when Alan C. writes the other one.
Hey, Sam in Phoenix...did you even look at the Dennis Jernigan link? And so what if Cole's not gay any more...if he's not coming after you (and that exgaywatch.com link seems to indicate that he's not) what's the problem?
posted by , at
2/24/2006 1:00 PM
Strange that someone brought up "Brokeback Mountain" as if it bolstered "ex-gay" claims! BBM is an eloquent story of what happens when a gay person tries to live as straight: duplicity, self-hatred, and a messy divorce leaving a brokenhearted straight spouse.
-Tara
posted by , at
2/25/2006 11:12 AM
The definition of an Ex-Gay: "A gay who feels guilty after he sucks a cock."
Frank
ex-ex-gay man
posted by , at
2/25/2006 12:39 PM
posted by Mike Airhart, at
2/27/2006 11:43 PM
Yes, I printed a nice item on Tom Cole at XGW in 2002.
But times change.
As far as I know, Tom Cole hasn't said one positive thing in defense of gay persons, or a negative thing about gaybashing, in years.
He was still on the Exodus board after the current band of theocrats took over. Neither Tom Cole nor another former moderate, Sonia Balcer, ever uttered a word of public disagreement or protest as Exodus became an extension of the GOP with loyalties now drifting toward the Constitution Party.
Actually the reverse happened: Balcer was formerly an independent exgay group leader, now she's an annual donor to the Exodus political war -- not only against gays, but against the most basic American values.
If I'm mistaken, and either Cole or Balcer have publicly repented, reformed, and repudiated Exodus, then I welcome proof via public statements.
Otherwise, Cole and Balcer's ancient statements against gaybashing are lies, given their subsequent political realignment and the abandonment of their respective anti-gaybashing projects.
posted by Mike Airhart, at
2/27/2006 11:44 PM
Sorry about the double-post. Blogger was having difficulties.
If there are exgays who are willing to publicly oppose Exodus' distortion and gross politicization of exgays' personal struggles, oppose unlicensed live-in therapy, and generally oppose discrimination based on sexual orientation, then XGW would like very much to publicize their identities and viewpoints.
posted by Mike Airhart, at
2/28/2006 12:09 AM
BTW, yes, Tom Cole doesnt' ping the 'dar.
In my life, it's not about what I've left behind, but what I'm choosing to move towards. I chose to not pursue lesbianism. I still go through attractions to women...and just as many men. Does that mean I've failed in my "program"? No. God brought me to a place where I've made a choice with my mind that God owns everything about me..that He bought not only my salvation, but my entire life & body and my choices here on earth through Jesus Christ on the cross.
When I first came to Christ, I was extremely suicidal. I didn't go through it and sought treatment because I knew I had to submit to God and keep on living as long as He ordained. So also with my sexuality.
I would never recommend someone to leave homosexuality without first having a personal relationship to Jesus Christ. Being alone and celibate (no matter which way the door swings in my attractions ;-) )is miserable without Jesus' comfort.
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