Friday, August 11, 2006
The "ex-gay" picket of the American Psychological Association's annual convention today was a total flop. It received a chilly reception from mainstream psychologists in New Orleans and their press conference had to be cancelled because there was virtually no press. Indeed, there was only one local camera, News Channel 6, and they interviewed me, ensuring that the prevailing mainstream viewpoint was represented.
After bussing in about 50 professional "ex-gay" lobbyists and likely spending thousands of dollars, one could only describe this as a total bust. If I were Dr. Nicolosi of the National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (
NARTH), I'd be depressed by the results. The high-priced event consisted of so-called "ex-gays" walking aimlessly in circles and shouting slogans to themselves.
On the other hand,
Truth Wins Out had a very successful day. Joined by the APA's Clinton Anderson and Greater New Orleans MCC pastor Rev. Dexter Brecht, TWO was on-site and prepared to counter the ex-gay myth. This morning, TWO also obtained a new and devastating
statement from the APA repudiating the ex-gay hoax. Additionally, the APA's rejection of conversion therapy is now being reported in publications such as
Planet Out,
The Advocate and
365Gay.com.
Here are pictures of NARTH's failed event:
TWO's Wayne Besen Waits For Media That Never Came 
97 Comments:
It's actuly kinda humurious to see some of these guys,espeicaly one of which has a sign that says don't tell me I'm born gay, and the last saying Not gay is ok, Well I just felt my gaydar beeping nonstop just by looking at them lol.
Ken
posted by , at
8/11/2006 3:24 PM
I'm glad Wayne was there, speaking truth to power.
posted by Sam, at
8/11/2006 3:46 PM
I wonder if all the protesters were ex-gay or if they just used some church's youth group.
Timothy
posted by , at
8/11/2006 6:11 PM
Do you suppose that the lady holding up the "Change is Possible" placard would put us in touch with some of the many people she must know, whose change from sake-sex to opposite-sex desire has been completed?
posted by , at
8/11/2006 6:25 PM
1. The guy with the sign Diversity Includes Us is a big hypocrite (like other "ex-gays"). If they want to be included in diversity, then they have to be diverse and not shut those who are not them.
2. Change is possible, especially when it comes to sex change operations that these hypocrites are also going against.
Blood From Machines
posted by , at
8/11/2006 6:37 PM
someone needs to tell the "change is possible" girl that it's possible to change that nasty 70's Farrah Faucet hair.
posted by , at
8/11/2006 8:45 PM
This is sad.
posted by , at
8/11/2006 10:15 PM
Why are they smiling? Is that a joke?
posted by , at
8/11/2006 10:30 PM
posted by , at
8/11/2006 11:03 PM
That reminds me of something...
Here is an article from the Gay and Lesbian Times (SD's LGBT rag):
http://www.gaylesbiantimes.com/?id=7909
The article is about Mel Gibson and what just happened in Balboa Park after Pride. But look at this paragraph:
Locally, the nut cases – perhaps like Pride gay-bashing suspect James Carroll, who is a drug addict and a two-time convicted burglar – take their cues from a “former” drug addict and three-time convicted burglar. (Can we all see why three strikes makes sense?)
This “former” addict and three-time convicted burglar, James Hartline, calls himself an “ex-gay,” and uses outrageous antics to engage our community so he can get media attention. The media coverage sends a message that he and his ilk have something valid to say. They don’t...
Hartline does not care about his own responsibility, instead blaming the gay community because of that little thing he got back while cruising the old bathhouse of Club Mustang. Because he found "God" (whoever He is), all Hartline is doing is desperately converting the gay community into "ex-gay" assholes like himself. Hartline should know that the gay community is not buying his game one bit. Also, I hate it when AFA's AgapePress sugar-coat Hartline's mission by claiming that he's the "persecuted one".
Blood From Machines
San Diego, CA
posted by , at
8/12/2006 12:41 AM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 12:59 AM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 1:41 AM
The report at the above link includes the following:
"Nicolosi, who works with people wanting to change their sexuality, said that he has found about a third of his patients experience no change, a third have what he called "significant improvement." and a third adopt a heterosexual life style.
"They marry and are cured," Nicolosi said. "They may have an occasional attraction, but not a major or constant one." "
The usual obfuscation. The figures of thirds of this and that is plucked out of the air by Joseph Nicolosi. Such figures are not taken from any reputable clinical study in any reputable peer-reviewed medical publication. Indeed the Spitzer study paints a very different picture.
I am interested in the word order "they marry and are cured". Not, "they are cured, and marry".
It would be particularly interesting to hear of any person who has experienced a true and complete change of sexual desire, and who has remained completely celibate and single both before and after this change.
Description from such a person would of necessity focus on TRUE change - of FEELINGS, not "FUNCTION".
posted by Phil, at
8/12/2006 9:19 AM
What a joke, that queen in the green shirt carrying the sign gives off 'the gay look' even in a photograph!!
posted by , at
8/12/2006 10:46 AM
I can't help but remark about all the gay men that look straight. Does that mean they are straight? What about the beautiful women who are lesbians - do looks mean everything?
posted by , at
8/12/2006 12:01 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 12:47 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 12:53 PM
True feelings:
Feeling you need to control the sexual behavior of total strangers.
Feeling you need to impose your religious beliefs on every member of society.
posted by , at
8/12/2006 1:27 PM
Feeling you're on a mission from God to bring the world into compliance with His True Purpose
posted by , at
8/12/2006 1:30 PM
Feeling you know better than other people how they should live their lives.
posted by , at
8/12/2006 1:33 PM
I guess "Don't tell me I was born gay" would be a lil' upset if I told him how cute he is. Pity...
posted by John, at
8/12/2006 1:48 PM
I know, I hate it when people try to tell me what my feelings should be. People should never ever impose on others in that way. But hey, you see it in families all the time. And everywhere.
posted by , at
8/12/2006 1:52 PM
John, you should call him!
posted by , at
8/12/2006 1:56 PM
Don't tamper with the text folks! What I wrote was "TRUE CHANGE", not "true feelings".
I was referring to the fact that the NARTH people and their ilk seem to count it as a change of sexuality when a man gets, or is, married and manages to make the "plumbing" work.
But a man can make the "plumbing" work with his wife even though he feels no sexual attraction to her, and even though his previous entirely homosexual desire and orientation is completely and totally unchanged and his total sexual desire is for his own sex just as it always was. Many "Therapy" people count that as authentic change of sexuality!
What I was referring to was a TRUE change, a change in DESIRE, so that a person who formally desired only the same sex now desires only the opposite sex - irrespective of whatever sexual activity they may get up to.
I feel that it would be especially impressive if a person - perhaps a teen - who had never yet had sex, was able to truthfully describe a change in desire from same-sex to opposite-sex through therapy.
No such persons exist, I believe.
posted by Phil, at
8/12/2006 2:15 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 2:19 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 2:42 PM
Questioning, I don't know. It's not actually what I was talking about, but I will come to it in a minute.
What I was talking about was people who purport to have changed sexual desire through a deliberate clinical methodology - through "THERAPY".
I presume that the pastor did not have "therapy" to change his sexual desire?
As to precisely what happened to him sexually and/or emotionally, well, perhaps it's not fair of me to venture a suggestion, as I haven't read his book.
I think I rather go along with what Wayne suggests in "Anything But Straight" - that there may indeed be some persons whose sexuality (sexual desire) does indeed undergo some kind of change - but not because of the theory or practice of any "therapist". Rather, for as-yet-unknown biological reasons.
I do believe in a spectrum of bi-sexuality.
posted by , at
8/12/2006 2:54 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 3:19 PM
No, having sex is not the 'litmus test'.
That is why I felt it would be inmteresting if someone who had never had sex was able to truthfully explain how through "reparative therapy" his sexual desire changed from same-sex to opposite sex.
I suppose we do not need a biology lesson here. People can, of course, attain a degree of sexual stimulation and satisfaction with the use of the hand. "Good sexual functioning" if you care to call it that. But that doesn't mean they want to marry their hand......
posted by , at
8/12/2006 3:33 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 3:38 PM
No indeed! I really wasn't forgetting them, I assure you. Though it seems to be only in relatively recent times that the "therapy" mob has acknowledged their existence....
posted by , at
8/12/2006 3:47 PM
It's all about the religious notion that true "change" and happiness can only come about through repression. That's why America's constitution conflicts with their idea of "Christian heritage." Freedom is religious dictatorship to them.
posted by , at
8/12/2006 4:05 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 5:01 PM
Yes. But there are no people who, through any clinical methodology or "therapy" have completed a change in sexual desire from same-sex to opposite-sex.
posted by , at
8/12/2006 5:53 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 7:17 PM
I'm not aware that NARTH makes such a distinction and refuses to treat your fomer group. I don;t think they admit the existence of your biological group. If they do, they take the money anyway.
posted by , at
8/12/2006 8:24 PM
Orientation as a result of trauma? Why does this idea recur? Do we need to entertain this spurious idea? Do people become heterosexual as a result of trauma? What sort of trauma? Any sort of sexual trauma would result in an aversion to any sort of sexual experience wouldn't it?
posted by , at
8/12/2006 10:15 PM
I wouldn't consider a person who has homosexual activity because of trauma to actually be gay, so no change is occurring. Change is perspective, yes. Anyone can change their way of thinking.
posted by jekelhyde, at
8/12/2006 10:15 PM
And actually, Phil, i know some gay men in their 60's and 70's who still wont' acknowledge the existance of lesbians, so it isn't just the right.
posted by jekelhyde, at
8/12/2006 10:35 PM
posted by , at
8/12/2006 11:09 PM
This is what I got into an argument with FOUR people at Focus on the Family over at four different times.
You have people who think homosexuality is a CHOICE, picketing a mental health entity.
1. If Exodus/LWO want homosexuality to be put back in the DSM, then it's a mental illness and not a choice.
2. Do they require that OTHER mental illnesses be cured or intervention a matter of Bible study, prayer and other religious discipline and repression or discrimination against the sufferers?
3. Religion and faith ARE not inborn characteristics.
No one is born religious, and it's definitely a choice. It's STRICTLY a behavior, therefore, according to THEIR logic and gay behavior, religion shouldn't be a PROTECTED right.
4. But it IS protected under our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
However, dare any of us challenge or demand that any of FOTF give up their religion?
The world has been in bloody conflict over religion for centuries. MILLIONS have died for it and many yet will.
However, the world isn't at war over homosexuals, and homosexuality.
So, considering all this evidence that extreme religion is DANGEROUS,
why doesn't Exodus, et al...rethink and give up THEIR rights for their behavior?
They can't make up their damn minds and they can't reconcile reality with how rights and equality are weighed.
Nor how physical, mental and social competence determine accountability and social integration and equal standards applied in the law.
It's like I always say:
The problem with groups like Exodus, you can't follow someone who is going in two different directions.
And you can catch more flies with bullshit.
posted by Regan, at
8/13/2006 1:01 PM
Pete and jekelhyde, I agree with you.
Such science as there is on this topic shows that those who suffer sexual abuse in childhood, while they may be very disturbed, do NOT as adults have their sexuality "converted" by such abuse.
Of course, of the total number of persons suffering homosexual abuse as children/youths, a proportion would be pre-gay children who would in any case be gay on reaching adulthood, abuse or no abuse.
Most child abuse of course is not same-sex but is of little girls by uncles and daddies. Very sad.
posted by , at
8/13/2006 1:05 PM
posted by , at
8/13/2006 3:23 PM
posted by , at
8/13/2006 3:28 PM
Speaking of the failed attempts to change people into something they are not...
HAPPY LEFT-HANDERS DAY!
The hell with those who desperately try to make us write with our right hands.
Blood From Machines
posted by , at
8/13/2006 6:31 PM
posted by , at
8/13/2006 6:38 PM
Regan, great post. Love your illogic!
"very unethical to ask someone to change their God or religion"
Anon at 3:28, I agree! So you must also agree that it is unthinkable to expect anyone to change their orientation. Afterall, religion is a mere choice while orientation is as natural and innate as eye color.
To all my fellow SouthPaws and Sinistrals, Be Gauche!
posted by , at
8/13/2006 7:11 PM
I totally agree- it is unethical to ask someone to change something that cannot be changed.
posted by , at
8/13/2006 8:04 PM
posted by , at
8/13/2006 8:09 PM
posted by , at
8/13/2006 9:53 PM
True, but the issue is not about people who have been in homosexual relationships or just homosexual activity seeking to find themselves. The issue is people who are gay being coerced or even forced to seek therapy because of the political, social, and religious machines that prey on the fears and ignorances of everday folks who are simply trying to help their loved-ones. The unintended consequence is the pain that is inflicted on the individual and the very people who tried to help in the first place.
posted by jekelhyde, at
8/13/2006 11:36 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 12:32 AM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 12:35 AM
"Belonging to the gay community is a big deal. and being gay is more than JUST biology. And it is a whole subculture that is different than straight life (it just is and we all know it)"
Ummm, no. We don't know any such thing. For the vast majority of gay people, their lives are indistinguishable from their straight peers.
There is some small percentage of gay folk that live in a "gay ghetto" and because this is what the media covers as "gay life" that what you think gay people are like.
There are about 10 million people who live in Los Angeles County. Which means there are roughly 2 to 300,000 gay people living in this city. You don't even get 10% of that out in West Hollywood on any given weekend. What are the other 90% doing? Living their boring little non-subculture life. You just choose not to see them.
posted by Timothy Kincaid, at
8/14/2006 1:01 AM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 1:37 AM
Before I get defensive, exactly what do you mean by "acting gay?"
posted by jekelhyde, at
8/14/2006 8:46 AM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 11:57 AM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 3:19 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 3:21 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 3:24 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 3:28 PM
Anonymous, if you know of any EVIDENCE that ex-gays exist, I should be very pleased if you would draw my attention to it. (By ex-gays I mean persons who have completed a change in sexual DESIRE from same-sex to opposite-sex).
I've not been able to find any evidence that they exist.
Saying that Martians do not exist does not mean that they do not exist. I think I'd like to see evidence though, before I would believe that they exist.
And, Anonymous, saying that ex-gays exist doesn't mean that they do exist.
posted by Phil, at
8/14/2006 3:48 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 4:09 PM
I didn't catch that. What did you mean by "acting gay?" And don't use the repeat question as an invitation to jump on Wayne. That isn't my purpose. I just don't want to get pissed off if there is no reason.
posted by jekelhyde, at
8/14/2006 4:21 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 4:24 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 5:56 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 6:26 PM
posted by , at
8/14/2006 9:37 PM
So, um. What did you mean by Acting gay?
Sorry. Being an asshole. couldn't resist.
posted by jekelhyde, at
8/15/2006 9:14 PM
The APA has reported that some children are willing partners in pedophilia relationships? What does that mean? Do we accept everything they say? I don't accept that. Can someone explain this to me.
posted by , at
8/16/2006 2:30 PM
"The APA has reported that some children are willing partners in pedophilia relationships? What does that mean? Do we accept everything they say? I don't accept that. Can someone explain this to me."
Can someone explain to you the fact that you do not accept something? Um... not really. I would presume what the APA has found is that children are sometimes manipulated into going along with pedophiles, to the point where they would claim to be in the relationship voluntarily, which is unfortunate but it probably does happen. It may even be possible that there are in fact children who seek out these relationships, but that still doesn't make it a good thing. The APA is making scientific statements, not moral judgements.
posted by Boo, at
8/16/2006 4:31 PM
This was a 1999 report I read online somewhere. It is still fritening to see that anyone would say that children are willing in this regard. They are barely old enough to decide what to have for lunch.
posted by , at
8/16/2006 5:58 PM
This is the second post in which you've made this claim. You've either taken it out of context or you are lying. Which??
posted by jekelhyde, at
8/16/2006 7:10 PM
Anonymous, Boo has answered your question very well, and it would be nice of you to thank Boo for doing so.
In relation to JH's comment, it would certainly help if you would cite the source of your "quote".
posted by , at
8/16/2006 7:19 PM
"This was a 1999 report I read online somewhere. It is still fritening to see that anyone would say that children are willing in this regard. They are barely old enough to decide what to have for lunch."
Again, anonymous- children are willing to do all sorts of stupid, dangerous, unhealthy, or just plain wrong things. That's why God invented parents. Whether or not there are kids who say they are willing participants is a factual question. If the APA is stating a fact, they're stating a fact. They're not necessarily saying it's right for them to do so or that it's healthy.
posted by Boo, at
8/16/2006 9:54 PM
Boo, you are EXACTLY right.
I think this quote from the APA was taken out of context and likely misinterpreted or not fully explained in the way you just did Boo.
Parents and other responsible adults are assumed to be protective, informed and monitoring not only their children, but who their children are with.
However, children are easily threatened and manipulated into doing something not healthy or dangerous to them.
There are plenty of parents out there who themselves put their children at risk CONSTANTLY, and only until there is something life threatening does anyone else intervene.
Children can be in an emotional situation that makes them vulnerable, and the predatory adult is the only one affirming and attentive to that child.
Therefore, the child may well choose to be with that adult and want to have sex, do drugs or whatever with them.
This isn't really a matter of deciding to do something, but rather not having the option to do anything else instead.
As an adult who mentors teens, children and teens not only WANT to please, but they are also looking for adults who have their backs and give them boundaries and goals to aspire to.
Adults who fail children in this on any level, are poison.
Not only to the child, but to the other adults who really DO have the child's best interest at heart.
posted by Regan, at
8/17/2006 12:07 PM
In relation to what a child may or may not think he "likes": Newspapers today have carried this story, which The Times of London England reports thus:
"A drug-addicted mother who gave her nine-year-old son heroin and crack was told yesterday to expect a lengthy sentence after she admitted supplying him with drugs.
Hove Crown Court was told that Emma Kelly, 31, of Eastbourne, had given her son drugs over more than two years, but that social services had not taken the child, now aged 13, from her custody despite seven visits to the home."
That poor boy may have felt that he LIKED the drugs.
Some poor sexually abused children may have felt in a way that they LIKED the attention.
But whatever an individual child may think that he or she likes, children don't necessarily know what is best for them. It is surely the role of mature, sensible, genuine, concerned adults - gnerally their parents - to look out for the interests of children, and to make sure that children don't do what harms them, even if they think they LIKE it.
posted by , at
8/17/2006 5:22 PM
The only link I found that the anonymous poster was likely to cite is the following:
www.apa.org/monitor/julaug99/as4.html
I don't think that this states what said anonymous believes it states at all. My words may have been harsh, (I am greatly reluctant to call anyone a liar.) But since the anonymous person posted the same message on two different blogs, it just appears propogandized. (If that is a word.)
Sorry anonymous for my harsh words. All..read the link and decide for yourselves.
posted by jekelhyde, at
8/17/2006 8:50 PM
Anonymous at 2:30 on 16 Aug, are you now satisfied that the question you posed has been adequately addressed and answered?
Do you now "get it"?
Are you appreciative of the time that others have spent on your behalf in attempting to facilitate your understanding?
posted by , at
8/18/2006 3:12 PM
Yes, I understand the interpretation. And will be doing further research on this topic. Thank you. (have been travelling and did not get to a computer)
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