Wayne Besen - Author, Activist, Columnist, Public Speaker

Wednesday, September 06, 2006

TRUTH WINS OUT CONDEMNS NEW 'EX-GAY' TELEVISION SHOW

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

'Pure Passion' Will Pollute Minds With Pure Nonsense, Says TWO

Miami Beach -- Truth Wins Out today condemned the upcoming launch of "Pure Passion," an "ex-gay" television show that will air on two Christian television networks. Beginning Sept. 18, The Sky Angel Satellite Network will run the program on Tuesday evenings at 11 PM (ET) on channel 9702, according to an ex-gay newsletter. "Pure Passion" will also broadcast on local affiliates with the Christian Television Network.

"The last thing people of faith need is more pure propaganda and pure nonsense that is rejected by every mainstream mental health organization in the nation," said TWO Executive Director Wayne Besen. "We are deeply concerned that innocent young people dealing with their sexual orientation will be led to self-destructive behavior, including suicide, by a show designed to confuse fact with fiction."

The show, produced by Mastering Life Ministries, will be hosted by David Kyle Foster, a former male prostitute; Exodus International President and self-confessed former thief Alan Chambers; pop singer Sy Rogers; and ex-lesbian activist and self-avowed former "home-wrecker" Christine Sneeringer.

"The colorful characters hosting this show with questionable moral character will likely prove to be quite entertaining, as most circus acts are," remarked Besen. "However, the list of lies that will be broadcast are nothing to poke fun at and will shatter many lives. TWO will continue working to reach Americans with the truth and factual depictions of GLBT life."

TWO is a non-profit think tank and educational organization that counters right wing disinformation campaigns, debunks the ex-gay myth, and provides accurate information about the lives of GLBT people. Besen, the group's founder and Executive Director, is the author of "Anything But Straight: Unmasking The Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth."

65 Comments:

My cat's litter-box is more Christian than these people. Why dont they spend all that time and money helping people who really need it, like the Katrina victims. It still amazes me how the need for hate and scapegoatism can drive everything that they do; the policies of the third Reich come to mind. As much as I detest fundamentalists, I would never waste my time and energy producing a TV show to smear them. (They do a good enough job of that themselves).
B. Queer
posted by Anonymous, at 9/06/2006 1:17 PM

Oh, goody gumdrops . . . now we'll get to see phony ex-Gay people paraded across our television screens every week! It'll be just like watching "Jerry Springer." Shame on CTN! It's bad enough these so-called Christian activists convince confused folk to declare themselves "ex-Gay" and shoehorn them into prefabricated heterosexual roles . . . now they want to exploit these poor souls for the sake of ratings! Disgusting!

I find the name of the production company behind "Pure Passion" to be very revealing: MASTERING LIFE. That's exactly what extreme fundamentalists want to do . . . "master" our lives! There's only one Master, though, and He neither promotes nor exploits confusion. Beware of Bible-brandishing manipulators who sell shame to Lesbians and Gay men, claiming to speak on the Master's behalf!
posted by Stuffed Animal, at 9/06/2006 1:31 PM

It's sad. it's so sad that these people are not comfortable in their own skin; that they have to pretend to be straight and worse, that they have to make everyone else pretend also. It's sad that they could never find happiness in their true life forms.

My partner has been married twice. I always thought he was bi-sexual. I suppose I should call him ex-straight. Someone needs to give these people a wake-up call. Just because you were unhappy being gay and decided to fake it, it doesn't mean the rest of us are unhappy. I have been in a relationship for 8 years. My uncle has been with his man for 20 years. Before my great uncle's lover died of cancer in the mid 80's they had been together for nearly 50 years.

After having seen a number of things that Alan Chambers has written, i do believe him to be a pathological liar, and David Foster seems to have been dealt a raw deal and is hiding behind a religion that he believes will deliver him. christine sneeringer... well who knows. Many women dabble in homosexual relations just because they can. My own mother did it in college.

I guess my point is that if you are so dead set on happiness in the hereafter and your happiness in the "now" is nill, than what good is the hereafter? And if you are lying to the masses in order to secure your place in the hereafter, do you really think that place will be held for you?

Kharma is a bitch, people. Everything you do in life comes back at you. And these liars will never find peace as long as they continue to disrupt the peace of the rest of us.

I will now step off my soap box.

Peace and love to all.

Darren
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/06/2006 8:58 PM

Maybe we can make a drinking game out of it. Any suggestions?
posted by JoshWatermanMN, at 9/07/2006 9:36 AM

Foster the former prostitute is another so called ex-gay "success story" whose life was a total train wreck before finding fundamentalist religion. I think it's very interesting that the ex-gay leadership seems to be heavily composed of such people.
posted by Sam, at 9/07/2006 11:21 AM

OMG. You guys just can't stand the idea that someone does not want to act gay anymore. Take your ball and bat and go home. They are not there to talk to you anyhow.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/07/2006 11:52 AM

Anonymous at 11:52, can you define what you mean by "act gay"?
posted by Phil, at 9/07/2006 1:11 PM

So what does that mean, anonymous? People only go into ex-gay ministries so they can learn not to "act gay?" I thought they didn't want to BE gay. Which is it? By the way, what does "act gay" mean, anyway?
posted by Sam, at 9/07/2006 1:23 PM

I am gay,I have went through the thoughts and even had sex with a female to try to change because society made me feel I should, But that was a while back, I am alot more comfortable with my sexuality now and laugh at the silly attempts to change, It feels alot better to be happy as I am.

~Ken
posted by Anonymous, at 9/07/2006 1:30 PM

Calm down folks! I predict the show will be so hilariously bad not even fundamentalists will take it seriously. The stars are so squirrelly, the only thing they'll get for their trouble is horselaughs.
posted by Ben Dover, at 9/07/2006 2:27 PM

Acting gay - having sex with your own sex, thinking the same politics as most gays (or in some cases gay sympathizers), etc... I mean what is acting gay anyhow? They may be gay (really and truly) but they don't want to act gay anymore. So what? Who cares? That was their decision not yours.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/07/2006 3:52 PM

Anonymous at 3:52, thank you for that clarification.

You define acting gay in part to mean having sex with a person of the same sex.

In your definiton, then, a person who has never had sex with anyone, is not "acting gay" even though as far as DESIRE is concerned, he is attracted exclusively to his own sex.

The problem here, Anonymous, is that many of those connected with the "ex-gay" sales industry are selling the idea that DESIRE can be changed by a clinical methodology - i.e. they suggest that after spending the $24000 dollars on NARTH therapy (Nicolosi suggests two sessions a week at $125 per session and cites two years as the minimum time for change of desire to occur)a person's DESIRE will have changed.

This new TV show seems likely to promote this idea. And if it's a false idea, which is what I believe, then they will be promoting a lie.

A TV show dedicated to promoting belief in celibacy outside of monogamous heterosexual marriage would no doubt meet with objections from some, but at least it would be HONEST, if it did not pretend that DESIRE could be changed or has been changed by therapy. But that's not what this show looks likely to be. It looks likely to be a lie.
posted by Phil, at 9/07/2006 5:36 PM

I've been having sex with men for a long time. Never once did I consider myself acting. Thanks for enlightening me. Furthermore, it takes more than sexual relations to make a person gay, whether they are acting or not. "To be or not to be" gay. Isn't that the question? Well the answer is, if you are you are and if you aren't then you aren't. Either way, it cannot be altered. You can't "Act" straight and become straight. I could pretend to be a duck, but I will never achieve duck status. But fine, if they are happy pretending, go for it. More power to them. The question is not and has never been people trying to be straight. The problem is in their implication that all gay people can and should be straight to be right with the world and with God. And the implication that all Gay people are seriously screwed up until they find a way to live straight. You can spin the PFOX way if you want to do so, but it's simply BS to the nth degree. It's acting. "And a rose by any other name...." Mixing Shakespeare, but you should get my drift.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/07/2006 9:04 PM

So...now Southern-Baptist minded idiots are in the movie making business? Do they not have better things to do with their money, such as helping the homeless or the mentally ill? Of course, there is a direct correlation between religious obsession and mental illness. In the case of Southern- Baptist minded idiots, charity should start at home!! LOL!!!
posted by petshopboyclifton, at 9/07/2006 9:09 PM

Jekelhyde,

I have another way of saying that last line of yours . . . " a pig with lipstick on is still pork!"
posted by Stuffed Animal, at 9/07/2006 9:23 PM

So what Phil? People beleive they changed. Who cares? Why do you care? You don't believe it. Some do. For some peole they have achieved what they set out to do. It's not what you want - is it? And there is no methodf of psychotherapy that work for everyone all the time. It's a fairly new science. Not to defend psychotherapy, but they still don't know how exactly to help war veterans, rape victims, compulsive behaviors (w/o meds) etc... There is so much that we are still learning. And honestly, if some gay guy wants to try - let him. It is his choice. What do you care??
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 1:08 PM

You simply refuse (or pretend to refuse) to accept the truth about Gay people . . . that our sexuality is just an expression of our unique gender identity, not a compulsive behavior or a result of trauma, or anything of that sort! It's as inherent as being Jewish, Irish or Italian. It's as natural as being ambidextrous, having a talent for Math, or having a photographic memory. We care because we don't want heterosexist quacks circulating among us, shaming us, confusing us, stirring up superstition and bigotry, trumpeting false claims of "transformation," and turning our lives upside-down. Suicides have resulted from what ex-Gay "therapists" do. So has HIV infection in unsuspecting Straight spouses. Now, there are people out there who think even committing suicide is someone's "choice." Why should anyone care? It's a free country, right? Those kinds of people definitely aren't Christians, and if their laissez-faire attitude towards their fellow man begins to predominate, we're sure as sh** gonna go down just like the Roman Empire went down!
posted by Stuffed Animal, at 9/08/2006 4:23 PM

Anonymous at 1:08, don't you care about anyone other than yourself? Don't you care about any of the problems or challenges affecting others of the human race?

If not, you are so much less than a human can and should be. I commend John Donne's Meditation 17 to you:
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

I care that others should be bilked of $24000 by those who know that they cannot deliver that for which their earnest victims hope. Am I less or more of a human for caring?

Anonymous, you say "And there is no methodf of psychotherapy that work for everyone all the time."

If you know of any scientific evidence that any clinical methodology for changing sexual desire has ever worked for any person at any time, I should be interested to hear of this and would be grateful for any details you can supply.
posted by Phil, at 9/08/2006 5:03 PM

I gave birth to a beautiful sweet baby girl 35 years ago... she grew up with strong morals and sensitivity to the world around her.. she says she has always been more comfortable with girls than boys. She has just told Her father and I that she was lonely and has many lesbian friends and now feels comfortable with that lifestyle. Sorry.. I don'y buy it!1 God made her ..He loves her and He didn't intend on this life for her. It's wrong and immoral.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 5:48 PM

How sad! I can feel the thickness of the wall that's gone up between you and your daughter, who I'm sure is a lovely person. I could tell you why you should feel proud that your daughter is Lesbian. I could tell you exactly how it happened that she became that way. I could tell you that her Lesbianism foretells of a wonderful destiny for her in God's Heavenly kingdom. I could tell you things that would make you fall on your knees praising God in thanks. I could, but I won't, because I know your mind and your heart would not be open to such information. All I will tell you, then, is this: My Grandmother Jacobs always told me that God works in mysterious ways. We can't always interpret His actions. What at first looks like misfortune or tragedy may turn out to be a blessing. I've seen it happen in my own family. We must trust God to know what's best, and in time, He may reveal his Divine intentions and purposes to us. Faith is the balm for the heartache and regret you're feeling right now.
posted by Stuffed Animal, at 9/08/2006 6:13 PM

SA - I never said anything about trauma - or whatever you say . You confuse me with someone else. You accuse people of things they never said or thought!!
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 6:26 PM

JH - AS I said they are gay but do not want to act gay anymore.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 6:27 PM

Anonymous at 6:27, are you saying then that you do not know of any person whose DESIRE has changed through any clinical methodology?

Is it your expectation that this new TV show will make it clear that the only change that can be achieved is from sexually active to celibate, with desire unchanged?
posted by Phil, at 9/08/2006 7:30 PM

Phil - niether you nor I know what a person's true desire is.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 8:14 PM

Anonymous at 8:14, are you therefore saying that there is no credible scientific evidence of change of desire through any clinical methodology?

I should be most grateful if you could venture your answer to the question I posed earlier in relation to this new TV show:

"Is it your expectation that this new TV show will make it clear that the only change that can be achieved is from sexually active to celibate, with desire unchanged? "
posted by Phil, at 9/08/2006 8:20 PM

Anonymous,

You consistantly state that it is their choice to try to change. I don't think so. I think gay people who are comfortable in their own skin do not desire change. Those who are not comfortable are not comfortable because of outside influences; family, church, society. Therefore, the choice to attempt change is not their choice at all, but someone else's choice for them. And I very much care if a person is told that they can and should change orientation and when said therapy fails they feel more miserable than when they started. "We have the right to change" and "we are so harrassed because we have changed" is so much the rallying cry of Exodus and PFOX. It's sad. But if you don't care about a person's psychological well being, there is nothing I can say that will change that.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/08/2006 9:03 PM

Well, I prefer blonde hair. Is it my choice to change color o r not?
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 9:08 PM

Phil, don't put words in my mouth. I said it is not clear. Some things work for some people - some things don't work for others. Whatever a person feels satisfied with for having achieved whatever feeling or goal or anything then that is meaurable only by them - not you nor I.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 9:11 PM

JH - not everyone is a little child in their mind and needs any big brother whether it is the church or a gay activist telling him what he ought to do or not do. You apparantly don't trust people to be able to make decisions for themselves unless it is to do what you want them to do.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 9:12 PM

changing hair color will not cause you irrepairable harm, unless all your hair falls out and never grows back. But I guess you would get used to that, wouldn't you. People who are truely gay need to be councilled to cope with being gay, not trying to change their stripes.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/08/2006 9:12 PM

Why then, Anonymous, would you say that people desire change??? I cannot think of a single reason to not be yourself, unless someone else tells you you should. So tell me your opinion. I really want to know.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/08/2006 9:15 PM

You've never been dissatiasfied with something about yourself? We all have changed something about ourselves. Apparantly, those who say that they have changed do not feel that they have caused themselves irreparable harm. I have known men who have tried to change - did not change - and go on to live succesful lives. Big deal. there are some who have tried to change and live poor lives. The experiences are as varied as the indivdual. I honestly cannot say that what is good for me is good for everyone. Can you?
posted by Anonymous, at 9/08/2006 11:16 PM

"I never said anything about trauma - or whatever you say . You confuse me with someone else. You accuse people of things they never said or thought!!"

Oh, yeah? Instant replay!

"Not to defend psychotherapy, but they still don't know how exactly to help war veterans, rape victims, compulsive behaviors (w/o meds) etc..."

Liar, liar, pants on fire, you hang 'em on a telephone wire!
posted by Stuffed Animal, at 9/09/2006 1:52 PM

"Well, I prefer blonde hair. Is it my choice to change color or not?"

"You've never been dissatisfied with something about yourself? We all have changed something about ourselves."

Lord in Heaven! To think we've been trying to explain to this person (or people) for months what sexual orientation is, and still the conversation sinks to this unbelievably asinine level! Next thing you know, somebody will start claiming that heterosexuality can be bottled and sold over the counter like Miss Clairol! "Do Straights really have more fun? Try it and see!" BARF! Too much ignorance up in here for me! After 'while! I'm done with this topic.
posted by Stuffed Animal, at 9/09/2006 2:01 PM

But why, aside from outside influences, would a person seek change? I don't think you have really addressed this question. You said that people don't need the church or a gay activist or anyone telling them what to do. But who has told them that change is necessary? Why have they gotten the idea that they should be unhappy as they are? And for the record; again and again and again; no gay activist has ever told an individual that they cannot attempt change. They are merely telling Exodus and similar groups to stop telling people that change is probable, and necessary in order to be happy. You continuouly try to point the conversation in a different direction, as though people who seek change are the victims. This is thoroughly and completely incorrect. It is Exodus speak. People who are coerced into seeking change are the victims as well as the rest of the general public who are buying into the BS, and gay people who are being denied rights because of the BS. I stand by my statement. People who are seeking change are doing so because someone else told them that it was the right thing to do. No one can be happy unless he is comfortable in his own skin. Sexuality is part of a person's basic make-up. It is a part of you, not a part from you.

And, please, if you could stop using the phrase, acting gay, I'd appreciate it. It may not be meant as such, but it is offensive to a lot of people.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/09/2006 2:18 PM

Anonymous at 9:11, you say "Phil, don't put words in my mouth. I said it is not clear. Some things work for some people - some things don't work for others. Whatever a person feels satisfied with for having achieved whatever feeling or goal or anything then that is meaurable only by them - not you nor I"

It seems to me on careful reading of what you have written, that you are saying two things:

1) You do not know of any person who has changed sexual desire from same-sex to opposite-sex through a clinical methodology.
2) You believe that it is not posible to know whether any person has done so.

Am I correct in thinking that this is the meaning of what you wrote?
posted by Phil, at 9/09/2006 6:59 PM

JH- Okay let me understand.

First, no one is ex gay.

Second, people who do change were never gay to begin with.

Third, people who are confused do not have the werewithall to seek help.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/09/2006 7:09 PM

Phil,

I am saying we cannot know for sure what is in the heart and mind of another person.

If someone who was not gay to begin with but acted gay (had gay thoughts, had gay sex) but now they do not then are they changed? I don't know. I'm asking you what you think.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/09/2006 7:10 PM

Anyone that thinks they know what it takes to become straight from being gay...I ask you these simple questions.

WHEN DID YOU DECIDE TO BE STRAIGHT?

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE YOU GAY?

The answers for you, are the same for gay people.

And a better question ultimately is this.

WHAT MAKES BEING STRAIGHT SIGNIFY BEING A GOOD PERSON?

The answers for you are the same for gay people.
One's sexual orientation has nothing to do with whether or not they are a good person.
A skilled person, a compassionate person.

And I thought that we teach our children what good people are.
After all, you can't lie to children and keep them unprepared for the real world.
The best thing to teach a child is empathy.
The questions I asked are at the foundation of empathy.
If you assume what is for you is the same for a gay person, there comes more certainty with the courage to wear someone else's skin.
posted by Regan, at 9/09/2006 7:16 PM

Anonymous,

First, if a person is having sex with a member of the same sex, they may not be gay. If a person is having sex with a member of the opposite sex, they may not be straight. It is the desire, not the act that is the question. And it is more than a physical desire. People are gay, straight or bi. Rather than claiming to be ex-gay, why do they just not refer to themselves as straight? I feel it's political. So no there are no ex-gays. Frankly, it's general semantics.

Second, I don't know if change in orientation is truly possible. I've heard of some men, who upon aging, suddenly begin to feel attractions to the same sex and feel nothing for the opposite sex. But people who are coerced into attempting change and people who are told they are on a fast track to hell unless they seek change and claim that they have changed are delusional.

Third, people who are confused should, of course seek help if they need to. But not from witch doctors and fundies who claim miracle alterations to sexual orientation. They should seek help to find themselves and to become comfortable with who they are inside.

Fourth, there are varying levels of bi-sexuality. So a person who claims he or she is gay and is now claiming to be straight may have just been Bi.

Fifth, you and I have reached a wall. We can go back and forth for ever and the wall will not be breached. I suggest we just agree to disagree and go on with our lives.

Peace and love to you
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/09/2006 8:22 PM

Anonymous at 7:10 pm, you say "Phil, I am saying we cannot know for sure what is in the heart and mind of another person.

If someone who was not gay to begin with but acted gay (had gay thoughts, had gay sex) but now they do not then are they changed? I don't know. I'm asking you what you think."

Thank you for asking what I think.
I will try to say a little about that. First of all, though, I'd like to observe that you seem to be saying that the Spitzer study is useless: Since we cannot know for sure what is in the mind and heart of another,(i.e. we cannot be sure if they are telling the truth when they SAY what is purportedly in their mind and heart) then we cannot know that they have truly changed desire. The Spitzer study then is indeed worthless.

There are methods that would help scientists feel more sure, such as testing by polygraph and penile plethmysography. You would think those selling "therapy" to change desire would eagerly encourage the changed to submit to those tests so as to assist in provingm the veracity of their claims. Not so, however.

I think that no person has ever experienced a change in sexual desire from same-sex to opposite-sex desire through any clinical methodology. I think I broadly align with the comments Wayne makes in Anything But Straight - that there may be a few people (probably bisexual to some extent to start with) who do experience some change in desire - but not due to the theories and "therapies" of NARTH and their ilk.

In relation to the topic of this thread, I think that this new TV show will in all probability employ the usual mix of obfuscation, in which talk of change and therapy and miracle and prayer will be all jumbled up and there will be no shred of proper medicine or science. I think too that it will do harm, because this obfuscatory mix will raise in people a false expectation that a clinical methodology can alter the orientation of their sexual desire.

That's what I think, Anonymous. Thank you for asking.
posted by Phil, at 9/09/2006 8:44 PM

From anonymous Number 2:

Let me explain it to you anonymous number 1. They can be as ex-gay as they want to deceive themselves into believing. It's when they parade themselves around and judge others who want to remain gay that they cross a line. If the xians and their brain-washed "ex-sinners" weren't out publicly badmouthing queers with their condescending , smarmy, phony-compassion and simply lived their lives in quiet contentment this blog and TWO wouldn't even exist! But this being a free society, they can say what they want.

And so can we.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/11/2006 3:37 AM

Being gay or staight does make you inherently good. It is the quality of your character. Integrity. Self-reliance, contribution to community etc... I know a lot of reformed alcohlics that are still shitheads. I know some ex-gays that need a kick in the head /or heart to get them to settle down and focus on their own life and not everyone else's (who is not living they way THEY think they should live) Being good is not a gay or straight issue. There are slo some gays out there that take advantage of eachother (those who cannot be out as in the military) etc.. I have seen both sides of this issue and anyone who commands another to behave as they do - is just well ignorant.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/11/2006 6:33 PM

Well, where to begin. I happen to have met three of the four hosts of this show. They are, from what I see, wonderful people who have some baggage. They love God with all of their hearts. I happen to be someone who experiences same-sex attraction and is not happy. I do not want to be with another woman. I know that from a lot of factors from my childhood and upbringing, I have developed these feelings. I know that change is possible. I know many people that have never been through therapy that no longer face these feelings. I find it to be somewhat hypocritical that a group of people, the LGBT community, that has been judged for so very long would be judging another group so harshly. Why is it okay for you to judge these people, but would throw a hissy-fit if they were to judge you, something I know the hosts of this show would never do? I know that some of you in the LGBT community have been judged by misguided Christians. Hear this today. God loves you. Contrary to popular belief, God does not hate homosexuals. Yes, homosexuality is spoken agains in the Bible, but so is lying, murder, adultery, jealousy, pride, anger...etc. God doesn't hate people, period. He may dislike some of our actions, thoughts, or motives, but He still loves us. God bless you all.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/12/2006 2:47 PM

*Sigh!* Contending with Christians such as the one who's message precedes this is a bit like trying to reason with someone from the Flat Earth Society. But here goes...

When last I checked, it was still a free country (although St. George and his buddies seem to making good progress towards making our Constitution a dead letter), and anyone can patronize whatever sort of healer--physical or mental--that they wish.

If someone wants to pay good money to a quack who assures them ever and again that they are one of God's mistakes, but that they can live it down by avoiding contact with gay friends--let alone having sex; that is their business. I will, however, excercise my right of free expression to denounce said quack as a quack.

Every faith healer--no matter how weird their doctrines, or shady their dealings--can trumpet a few successes. So what? What happens to 99 out of 100 who remain unchanged? Well, they are usually put off with flimflam about being patient and waiting (and waiting, and waiting) until God sees fit to change them. Heads he wins, tails you lose!

In order to soften up the 'patient', they are are fed a non-stop diet of defamatory lies, such as 'all gays are unhappy' (funny how the happiest ones accept themselves while the truly miserable ones are precisely those who accept the Religious Right caricature of themselves as diseased and/or sinful). Such people do not scruple from using AIDS to terrorize and to try to bludgeon gays out of their "choice". This is nothing but sadism, pure and simple.

No Christian I know of would proselytize among Jews like this; why are they so obsessed with 'fixing' gays?

What exasperates many gays is not so much the hellfire-and-damnation types, but the quieter sort of Christians who support this junk. Has it ever dawned on them that this kind of "therapy" (or "ministry") is a standing affront to people who have had to struggle on their own from the cave of ignorance and religious superstition to the broad light of day where they could finally see themselves for what they truly are, instead of what others want them to be? It is nothing but the 'soft' version of the rejection gays have suffered from Christians throughout history. It is the modern-day equivalent of burning witches and heretics at the stake.

But I'm wasting my time. Human cries cannot reach ears that are stopped by religious dogma. Religious fundamentalism (of every stripe) has replaced secular movements like Communism and Nazism as the gravest threat to peace, human rights and constitutional democracy in the world today. They cannot be reasoned with, only guarded against. If fundamentalist Christians (and millitant Muslims--who are really just another branch off the same poisonous tree) could be bundled togeather and sunk to the bottom of the Marianas Trench, it would be so much the better for gays (and everyone else) and so much the worse for the fish.
posted by Arch-skeptic, at 9/12/2006 5:51 PM

Well, thank you for wishing people dead. That show great measure of your philosophical thoughts, too.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/12/2006 7:15 PM

Anonymous 2:47 pm,

I respect your opinion and see your post as good hearted. However, if you are gay, your same-sex attractions will remain forever, dispite what people tell you. It is born in, not learned, and it is not completely sexual in nature. When I think of my life with my partner I think of a day when we will be old and gray; when sex is a distant and pleasant memory; when we are sitting on the porch swing holding hands and talking about the grandkids. Perhaps you are bi-sexual, in which case you can live a straight life if you want. I don't have that option. I am a gay man and have to be happy as me, or live a life of misery.

I also think you are misinterpreting the Bible. The laws of Leviticus are laws to which we are not bound, not levites. the words of the Apostle Paul are simply regeritations of verses in the Old Testament. Christ himself never mentions gay relations, and he had many opportunity to do so. Furthermore, the hosts of the show may be good people, but they are horridly misguided. If faith is important to you, anonymous, I recommend going to Gaychristians.org and reading it thoroughly. If you can open your eyes and your mind and still feel that God has spoken against homosexual acts, i invite you to see Earlychristainwritings.org. Read and see for yourself.

Have a great life and take care,

Darren
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/12/2006 8:36 PM

but do you deny anonymous that wars are caused by fundamentalist religious people? It is the secular left and not the christian right that trully practises what christ taught, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek. With right wingers if they get struck on the cheek they bring out the guns and shoot said person.
posted by Adam Kautz, at 9/12/2006 8:38 PM

There's a book out called Thy Kingdom Come - it about how the religious right has hijacked Christianity. I have not read it, yet. But not all Christians go around being political about stuff. Shit many are in war torn areas ministering to the so called "enemy of the state". WSo, inspite of the media hype around right wingers - some christians are not that insane and are actually real nice people.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/12/2006 11:06 PM

Um - Christ mentions the holiness of of a husband and wife union. He does not mention incest, sexual abuse specifically either??? Or sex with animals.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/12/2006 11:30 PM

"Um - Christ mentions the holiness of of a husband and wife union"

In the context of discussing marriage, which was, at the time a property establishment. Marriage, in the time of Christ was never for love. It was for money, property, and population. People didn't choose who they would marry, it was decided for them. But never did he state the the love between two men or two women was unholy or unnatural. And in the context of discussing marriage and unions, he very well could have.

Furthermore, there is no comparison between homosexuality and incest, sexual abuse, or beastiality. That's the rhetoric of the Religious Right, who only follow the Bible when it's convenient for them.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/13/2006 10:27 AM

JH - I am just pointing out that saying Christ did not mention it - is not good reasoning - as you can see where that argument could lead. And that is how Christians ( who do not see homosexuality the same way as you do) are going to argue that point. And it gets us nowhere. If someone wants to use the bible and I think they should - then look for a better line of reasoning. If there are an atheiest or do not buy into religion then don't use the bible.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/13/2006 1:55 PM

No, what it does is challenge people to actually open the bible and search the pages, instead of regergatating the words that they hear from their ministers. And within searching the pages, perhaps they can gain some enlightenment. Of coure I would never use scripture with an aethiest. That would be silly and insulting. Personally, I only throw the bible back at people who have thrown first. And being the son of a minister, I am in a position to do so. Not that my interpretations of the bible are right and someone else's are wrong, because intrepretation is mostly opinion. But if a dialogue can be established perhaps an understanding can be reached. And if a person who calls themselves christian actually opens the book and reads the verses, perhaps he or she can take something away from the book that they hadn't before, and I am not just talking about matters of sexuality.

But I agree, a religious stand point should not be an arguement for a non-religious post or argument.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/14/2006 3:22 PM

No, what it does is challenge people to actually open the bible and search the pages, instead of regergatating the words that they hear from their ministers. And within searching the pages, perhaps they can gain some enlightenment. Of course I would never use scripture with an aethiest or a pagan. That would be silly and insulting. Personally, I only throw the bible back at people who have thrown first. And being the son of a minister, I am in a position to do so. Not that my interpretations of the bible are right and someone else's are wrong, because intrepretation is mostly opinion. But if a dialogue can be established perhaps an understanding can be reached. And if a person who calls themselves christian actually opens the book and reads the verses, perhaps he or she can take something away from the book that they hadn't before, and I am not just talking about matters of sexuality.

But I agree, a religious stand point should not be an arguement for a non-religious post or argument.
posted by jekelhyde, at 9/16/2006 7:46 PM

Trust me, Christians who hate anyone are always interpreting the bible from a very legalistic and punitive position. There is not a whole lot of reasoning with those folks. I personally keep my distance as they are mostly abusive in nature. Um... they forget the story of the good samaritan and the lesson it teached.
posted by Anonymous, at 9/16/2006 8:33 PM

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
posted by Deseree, at 9/18/2006 7:52 PM

Much of the previous discussion has centered on the validity of people who identify as ex-gay. I want to bring the focus back to the possible consequences of having a television show that acts as one of the first cultural representation of a growing and frankly powerful movement. The production of this show is another example of how the Ex-gay movement is constantly taking on the language of LGBT activism and progression. In recent times we have seen a monumental growth in accurate, inclusive, and honest depictions of LGBT individuals both in film and television. So it is no surprise that the next step for ex-gay promoters is to construct, as it has been stated, “a list of lies” that can reach as many people as possible. The Christian networks that air “Pure Passions” will have the ability to guilt and shame a demographic of young people struggling with sexual identity issues. The best way to counter developments like this is to continue to provide and promote positive and noticeable images of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender individuals, in hopes of countering the growth of these damaging representations.
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　　我不停的喝着绿茶工具柜。绿茶静心工具柜。但此时怎么也静不下来零件柜。茶已尽工作台。平时茶尽之时工作台，正也是日落之时工作桌。

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　　剑还是那美丽的剑Google左侧排名，如果再加上一道剑光吹塑机，就会形成剑的艺术色带，武学的艺术电源插座。

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　　高手的悲哀太阳伞。
　　我握紧了刀桥架，我看着他的眼tpr，已经不再像十年前那样明亮了钢丝。

　　他的剑划出柴油发电机组，划出一道美丽的剑光护栏。我想围栏，这十年他大概在不停地使自己的剑光更美围栏。

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　　我叹了一口气仓储笼。远去仓储笼。
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