Tuesday, January 02, 2007

(Vancouver: A Panorama of HELL)

(Weekly Column)

Dear Pastor:

Thank you so much for sending me on this crucial missionary trip to the den of iniquity known as Canada. My dearest reverend, I can barely express my deep gratitude for this fact-finding opportunity. As you know, this will do wonders for my career in ministry. If there is one thing that matters to God's people, it is learning the ins and outs of gay sex.

Yes, we must investigate this Sin from every angle and be bold enough to articulate our missionary position without reservation. Only then will we understand its thrust into the USofA and be able to beat off this brawny beast and get America over the moral hump.

It has now been a week since I left the south for the cold and rainy city of Vancouver. As requested, here is my report from the heart of the damp, New Sodom on Canada's left coast:

First, I am absolutely shocked the city isn't in ruins, considering homosexual marriage is legal throughout this notoriously nelly nation. For years, we have warned our flock that two men or two women marrying will lead to the downfall of civilization. Yet, Canada, believe it or not, still seems quite civilized.

It is amazing how they pull off such deception. While God works in mysterious ways, Satan works in mischievous ways and I suspect he might be on the city of Vancouver's payroll. He may even be the mayor - but I'm still researching. I learned in seminary how important it is to dot your I's and cross your T's before accusing one of being Satan.

But if Lucifer were not running Vancouver, how do you explain that the trains still run on time, hot and sour soup is still served hot and sour, and business is booming? Even New Years Eve was more calm than chaotic. Amazingly, the hetero partiers didn't let the occasional same-sex couple holding hands ruin their buzz. Imagine a place where straight guys do shots without wanting to shoot homosexuals? What has the world come to?

What particularly surprised me was the number of heterosexual couples who still remain in this licentious land. I was expecting the city to be gayer than a Colorado revival meeting. But most people appeared to be straight - just as they were before the invasion of the homosexual agenda.

My heart went out to these poor folks and I did all I could to save their souls. Standing on the street corner of Granville and Robson, I handed out Bible tracts and warned how the homosexuals were going to recruit them into the lifestyle. Outrageously, the police accused me of being on a bad acid trip and told me to stop harassing shoppers or they would arrest me.

The mark of a country in decline is one that considers God's defenders crazy, while letting the gay recruiters run rampant. The citizens of Canada should rise up and stage a revolt by declaring certain provinces under the control of Peter J. Akinola, the Anglican Archbishop of Nigeria. If conservative Episcopal churches in Virginia can defect, placing themselves under his authority, why not British Columbia?

Akinloa would do an amazing job running BC. He is a holy man with his priorities straighter than the straights he represents. For example, a day after Jesus Christ's birthday, up to 500 people were burned alive when fuel from a vandalized gasoline pipeline exploded near Lagos.

"This was a preventable tragedy," Joel Ogundere, a lawyer whose home was next to the blast, told the Indian Express. "It was poverty, ignorance and greed."

Thank God for Akinola, for he does not let charred bodies or institutionalized corruption stop him from his obsession with rooting out the great moral evil of homosexuality. We should consider flying Akinola to Canada, where he can get Canadians right with God.

We must act now before Vancouver hosts the Winter Olympics on 2010. My brothers, the church is the only thing standing between gaybobs in bobsleds and vogue dancing becoming an Olympic sport.

In the Lord's name,

Rev. Red Olsen
Missionary Man, ex-gay minister and exorcist

P.S. I will report next from Massachusetts, where we will work to make the state more like Alabama. Sure, the divorce rate in Massachusetts is one of the lowest in the nation, but it is only a matter of time before Boston becomes a mini-Canada. Please wire the funds so we can offer Barney Frank a free week at our ex-gay ministry boot camp.

140 Comments:

It doesnt sound like he is mad at the genuine God. What a stupid and ignorant statement to make. It sounds like you are a fool with a transparent agenda. Maybe Wayne simply thinks the God of the ex-gays and James Dobson is an asshole.

I know I certainly think the God of these creeps and phonies is a jerk. I'm a real Christian and loathe the fake God of the Christian Right.

Look, gay sex is natural and God celebrates it. God does not think a fucking clump of cells is better than a life, when it comes to stem cell research. And the right's pro-Iraq war God got thousands of people killed. Some "God" you freaks pray to.

So, just because Wayne has a problem with your fake political God, doesn't mean he has isues with the real God.

And Ex-Gays are a fucking farce. What a bunch of shallow, self-loathing suckers. They are modern day Uncle Toms. They are the weak fools who beleive the oppressor. Shame on those collaborating frauds.

Jerry A.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/03/2007 6:14 AM  

"...gayer than a Colorado revival." I abosolutely love that!! Can't wait to use that lil nugget of comedy in casual conversation....
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/03/2007 8:50 AM  

Now Rev. Red, dont forget New Jersey, we're doing our part for the destruction of western civilization. If my boyfriend and I ever get married, we might even invite you.
Gary (NJ)
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/03/2007 9:29 AM  

Yes, anonymous fuck face, who is too much of a low-life coward, sissy, prick to state his real name.

But that is not surprising. So-called "ex-gays" are used to phoniness and lying, so remaining anonymous is just one more deception, I suppose. Lying comes so easily and naturally for ex-gays doesn't it? It is soon second nature, if your entire life is based on a fragile lie.

Anonymous, I have an issue with you. Who the fuck do you think you are to say that anyone has a problem with God. It certainly can't be inferred by the column. I read the same one as you did. People have a problem with fake Christians, such as you, not with Christ. Please don't confuse the two. You are not Christ-like.

Indeed, you are an arogant piece of monkey shit who knows nothing of God. You are a loser who claims to be ex-gay but trolls gay websites. Some life you have, pal. I certainly hope you don't have a poor wife. Imagine having an "ex-gay" limp-dick husband like you. What a waste of space on earth!!!!

On the totem pole of life, you are worse than a worm that resides in the infected anus. You are scum and a loser. Catch my drift. I am on to your game. You are self-loathing trash. And God uses you for comic relief.

Jerry A.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/03/2007 3:02 PM  

Jerry, my question to Wayne was one meant in sincerity. I do not appreciate the abusive way you have written to me and would not think of saying those kinds of things to you. I am ex gay, I do support gay rights, I am a christian, and have a valid question for Wayne.

Why are you so angry? Are you angry at the "ex gay" who promote man/woman marriage only, dobson, and others like him? Surely you have displaced your anger towards me but it cannot be me personally that you are mad at.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/03/2007 3:15 PM  

Anonymous, I'm having a hard time directing a comment your way.
I couldn't know you from any other Anonymous who posts here.

I'm not afraid for the folks here to know that I'm a straight black woman with a big mouth, and sometimes bigger attitude.
This I reveal at sites most frequented by gay folks.
I consider it being respectful, because identity and this subject are intertwined.
For the sake of accurately addressing the right person, I wish names could be used in your case.

Please understand that previous encounters with other ex gays has been extremely unpleasant and there is no commitment to ANSWER questions, just lecture in condescending ways to people they clearly think are beneath them for remaining gay.

I am perplexed by a person who is ex gay because I have also known people who are perfectly normal to seek out changing themselves to meet some impossible ideal.
I see this in ex gays as well. It's a way to achieve and ideal set by someone else.
And it compromises whatever gay people work hard to explain or educate the public for themselves.
Ex gays hijack honesty and self deception seems under a very superficial way of dealing with a more inquisitive person.
Indeed, all I get from ex gays has been vague generalities.
It's frustrating and it's very difficult to trust someone who says they are ex gay, with little anyone can do by way of evidence to prove it.
We're all supposed to take an ex gay's word on it, on faith.

Sorry my friend, no can do.
Ex gays are the gum, that sticks up the works towards real and honest integration between the gay and straight world.
But best to you anyway....it's just that ex gays, however free you are to be what you want.
Make everything much, much harder and are no help at all.
posted by  Regan, at 1/03/2007 8:10 PM  

I don't think all ex gays are trying to achieve an ideal. There is no ideal. There are hopes and expectations that are most times unmet. Then there is reality. That changing from gay to ex gay does not make life easier. We all have problems, issues, day to day activites that need to be dealt with. And sexuality is just one part of a WHOLE person.

I do hope that by being here, other ex gays who read this blog and gays who participate in this blog begin to be more honest with themselves. Not saying gays need to change but that change is possible for some and you can't group everyone and all people into one block. And that ex gays begin to have some backbone and declare their own right to live outside of the right fundamentalist political world and be real christians.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/03/2007 11:03 PM  

Because of the filth and hatred that has come my way here - you can sure bet it is out there - I WILL NOT expose who I am or my experiences (as those experiences can identify me) Sorry - but that is the world we live in - where some gay people think they can say and do anything they want to me. (Please see other hateful blogs) The hatred from the right fundamentalist christians and the gays is there on both sides. That is too bad. I will do my best to stand up and be counted for being ex gay, christian, not impose my religion on others and support the constitutional right of free people.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/03/2007 11:07 PM  

Aren't we forgetting that "Holy Dispatch from Canada" is a joke? We gay people are known to have a good sense of humor versus the humorless right wing Christians. One of the best ways to counter the Xtians/ex-Xtians is to offer them a double tsunami of laughter in response to their idiotic opinions.
posted by  richard schillen, at 1/04/2007 10:53 AM  

Anonymous,

Homosexuality is a sexual orientation that is determined in the womb during pregnancy. Homosexuals have different hormone and chemical levels in the region of the brain that determines sexual attraction.

In other words, it is biological.

People do not like ex-gays because they lie about changing their sexual orientation and the reasons for lying - to themselves and others.

You have not changed your sexual ortientation - anymore than a person born heterosexual can change theirs unless you have discovered a surgical procedure and drug treatment to change that part of your brain. Instead, you simply do not act on it. Not acting on it and pushing your sexuality under thr rug does not mean you have changed it.

Your dishonesty and weakness is what upsets people.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/04/2007 12:30 PM  

We can debate the fluidity of sexuality until scientist find the exact gene that creates sexual orientation. I know far too many people that have changed sexual preferences (not just sexual gender preferences) to believe that there are many, many levels of change where sexual orientation are concerned. You can head off in one direction and turn around - I did. What makes that happen?? A confluence of nature and nurture - in my opinion. Please be clear that I am stating my opinion. At least, this is the story for me and many, many others. It may not be the story for still many, many others.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/04/2007 1:07 PM  

Anonymous, your personal account elsewhere in Wayne's Blog was of an INVOLUNTARY change of sexual desire.

Those selling purported clinical methodologies, sometimes called "reparative therapy", suggest that sexual orientation or desire can be changed BY DELIBERATE EFFORT IN APPLYING SOME KIND OF CLINICAL METHODOLOGY.

By "many, many others", do you mean persons who have changed INVOLUNTARILY in sexual desire? Or are you referring to people whose desire has changed by "therapy"?

My belief after prolonged observation, searching and reading is that, far from there being "Many, many" of the latter, there are NONE.

That, in short, the entirety of "reparative therapy" is a scam.
posted by  Phil, at 1/04/2007 5:09 PM  

Well, Phil, since most of your experience and (I'm sure social group) is made of gay people or people who have tried "therapy" and were not succesful in their goals, then of course your expeirence is going to be skewed. So is my experience going to be skewed - since my social group is made up of people who have changed been in "therapy" of some kind or another, and I don't have alot of contacts with gays anymore (as you can see - being ex gay is not accepted)

So we can argue all day long. The truth is no one knows for exact scientific certainty exactly wherein the mind or DNA sexual desire is found. Sooooo...... can we agree that some people change and some people don't AND it doesn't matter who you are?? If you lived a heterosexual life and now live a gay life, if you lived a gay life and now live a heterosexual life, if you are ex ex gay or ex straight or whatever - it doesn't matter - people still deserve the right to be who they are as long as it does not impede on or impose on another.

Why are you so interested in the methodology of change if you have no desire to change?? And my experience is different from many of my ex gay friends. I mean, life is different for all os us. You can't say all gays came out in the same way or discovered in their sexuality in the same way - can you??
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/04/2007 5:37 PM  

OK, so, plain questions just ain't gonna get answers. I've asked 'em enough times and I give up now.
posted by  Phil, at 1/04/2007 5:52 PM  

Phil - I don't mean to be evasive - it just is that I was talking with friends last week and I am amazed at how different our stories are - where we come from, what we view as important, what compelled us to change etc... And our lives are very different.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/04/2007 6:08 PM  

I meant it - I'm finished. Thanks.
posted by  Phil, at 1/04/2007 7:20 PM  

Phil, it is clear that Anonymous is a pathological liar who can't answer even the most direct questions. He/she offers unsubstantiated opinions, shallow attempts at science and comical personal testimony (Like we haven't heard ex-gay tales before, eg. Paulk, Johnston)

The bottom line is this Anonymous just isn't a person to be taken seriously. He/she/it brings nothing substantial to the debate. The person is a second-rate dilletante full of fluff. In other words, a clown.

Sammy in NYC
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/04/2007 10:49 PM  

Sammy, I am a person who does protect her well being. Exposing a story that could identify myself would be foolish in an environment that is obviously hostile. My reason for being here, at this blog, is to demonstrate to the gay and ex gays who read here, that not everyone who is an ex gay has to tow the "propoganda" about what it is like to be an ex gay, christian, and supportive of gay rights. I hope that in some way I can help build a bridge where true diversity exists and people live more peacefully and not in adversarial relationships.

Just becasue we are different does not mean I am a liar or filled with fluff. People who cannot accept the idea that yes there are gays out there who would rather get rid of me in not so pleasant terms, then I am going to protect myself. Sorry but your taunting does nothing more than perpetuate an old story - you know the one we used to play in school " If that's true then prove it!" Well, we are all grown up now and I simply have to make my own way in the world and that does not include being intimidated to "perform" a certain way to please gay society. But as a moral obligation it does mean stand up and be counted for supporting what I believe in. And I believe in equal rights for gay citizens.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/04/2007 11:45 PM  

Thanks for this, your latest piece of satire, Wayne.
I'm glad you highlited the Nigerian archbishop's self-importance in putting us Canadians straight with his Dog.
"We don't have any homosexuals in Africa" he said. "We ate the last one last night" he added before realizing he had cum out as a modern-day cannibal ...

Do cum to Montréal which makes Vancouver look like a rebellious teenager in the area you described so well. Québécois of all stripes will eat Africa's Akinolas alive!

Yvon Thivierge
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/05/2007 1:09 PM  

Anonymous, stop playing the pathetic victim. It is really tiresome and unbecoming. You are not a victim, you are simply a yellow coward.

Marc Jacobs in Toronto
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/05/2007 8:32 PM  

No - I am not a coward. I have been verbally (excessively so) abused here and I understnad the displaced anger. But nonetheless, I am not going to tell too personal of a detail when lack of self control is being exhibit by some people. People, I might add, that I know nothing of except their vulgarness.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/05/2007 10:32 PM  

I am curious,first of all, I'm gay, but been working out at gym and recently started taking testosterone pills to help build muscles, doing so has increased my sex drive but I'm starting to wonder if continuted use of testosterone pills could slowly turn me straight? I mean testosterone casues masculine features.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/06/2007 1:27 PM  

That's a myth and I think you know it.
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/06/2007 2:02 PM  

Ok, well thats good to know, I thought it might be a myth but was'nt sure.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/06/2007 2:09 PM  

Alright, Anonymous (whichever one you are that addressed Phil's comments).
Define "success" when it comes to being straight?
Or ex gay?

In the real world of defining one's sexual orientation, it's not defined by one's religious discipline, marriage to the opposite sex or children one has sired, nor by celibacy or bachelorhood.

Success as a HETEROSEXUAL has no definition because it's an involuntary condition as well. I would be heterosexual whether I was having sex or not, single or not, religious or not.

So, if your definition of success as an ex gay is that you have completed some standard test, or engaged in certain behavior that THEY list that defines success, then I think you've wasted your time and ours.

Efficacy is everything, my friend, commitment and the person who is conducting the tests.
Look around you, everything to do with being gay, or ex gay and how gay people get treated is controlled by STRAIGHT people.
And the conduct of the ex gay industry is profit driven and a political machine as well as a social one.
They aren't in it to be benevolent.
Religious motive just gives them more opportunity to get away with the fraud.
The FTC wouldn't let any other group that claims healing and change to not come up with any viable results, except what's defined by lack of sexual activity (which has nothing to do with orientation)....or the quality of it with the opposite sex.
And NOBODY inquires about the QUALITY.
Not polite, you know.

You follow me?
So given all that, being ex gay is not important. One's sex life or lack of it, isn't important.
And neither is being religious.

But to hear and ex gay tell it, it's THE end all, and be all of one's validation, to let the world know you're no longer gay and (WHEW!) what a JOURNEY it was.

But in the straight world, the real straight world, where people pretty much are more concerned with bills and health insurance and a car that runs well...
Nobody but people interested in profiting off of world weary gay people would give a shit.

Us straight people don't expect medals and huzzahs and congratulations for just doing what nature intended...and neither should you.
posted by  Regan, at 1/06/2007 2:44 PM  

Success is defined by the individual in therapy. If they want to be straight and remain gay then they did not have success in their own eyes.

I cannot define success for anyother person except myself. And I am sure you are the same way.

Success to me is satisfaction.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/06/2007 3:33 PM  

Alrighty then, if success is satisfaction, then why does the ex gay industry insist that gay people aren't and can NEVER be satisfied?
No matter how many gay people testify to it, and live a satisfied life?

The definition of 'satisfied' by the ex gay industry is when THEY are satisfied, not the gay person.

Hence their constant and draconian mantra 'question homosexuality'.
Well, when the homosexuals answer, "we're happy, thanks, now move aside, we have better things to do."
The ex gay industry just gets more and more strident and hard to assure that socio/politically being happy as a gay person WOULD be unsatisfactory.

So, Anonymous, let's put this where it belongs:

the ex gay industry doesn't believe there is any such thing as a satisfied gay person, unless they are showing that they are straight.

Again, not for the gay person, but the sensibility and to perpetuate the myth that heterosexuality and satisfaction, are one and the same.

Try again....
posted by  Regan, at 1/06/2007 3:55 PM  

And may I make a suggestion?
When I wanted to learn about gay folks, their needs, wants, dreams and experiences...I didn't go to STRAIGHT people to get it.
When I wanted to have my black features and beauty validated and the cultural identity I developed be supported, I didn't go to WHITE people for it.

I wouldn't consult with a man about cramps and childbirth.

It's really pointless to go to not only STRAIGHT people for validation, but actively ANTI gay straight people for support and the emotional validation you seek.
It's one thing to go to a place of worship for it, but any situation that will destroy utterly, your already fragile sense of your identity, isn't healthy either.
You can come to Christ and be loved, gay or not.

I know how it feels to become world weary and painfully out of place among a powerful and controlling majority of people within a culture.

But what happens when a person identifies as 'ex gay', is you validate for the ANTI gay that they have won.
And for that, your brethren left to fight for THEIR identity are beaten with the stick the anti gay beat YOU down with.

This is why you are met with hostility.
Because NO amount of "I'm with you and don't believe in harming gay folks', will matter.
The commitment for the ex gay and anti gay industry is not to GET ALONG with gay people, but to DESTROY gay people altogether.
Maybe instead of being around Christians on that tip, you should talk to Jews. Talk to a minority that is under constant seige and threat to become history, and finally erased from it.

The gay identity is STILL fighting to be KNOWN, understood and finally accorded equal human rights. And you are one of the fallen, so therefore cannot call yourself someone who can defend what you didn't have the strength to keep for yourself.

I'm not even gay and I get that.
You're not family anymore, you gave it up, remember?
So quit trying to crash the reunion and act like they are supposed to recognize you as 'one of them' still.
posted by  Regan, at 1/06/2007 4:08 PM  

BTW...when I tried to go to ex gays about the process, the motive-I found an insufferable situation.
No one was honest. Their motives were more to turn on gay people in general rather than say it was for individual happiness.
Mores the point, the methodology, theories...everything.
Never ring true or sincere.
It sounds like generalized vagueness.
I haven't given up, but so far, most ex gays, at least the ones especially in leadership of the industry, are insulted by my questions and hostile to every answering anything for a person they suspect is very analytical.

I know what they are up to now, and frankly...it's diabolical.
If you know anything about Nazi and Jim Crow history-you should have run like hell.
posted by  Regan, at 1/06/2007 4:24 PM  

First of all, I don't hang out with people associated with the industry.

Second - Success is an idividual definition - different for each person - I was using someone else's terminology for themselves.

Third, whenever I get the chance to show the hypocrisy of the ex gay movement - I do. I have been very expressive of my displeasure with some of their ides and tactics - to them - in their face.

Last, I abhor the idea that people are not free - in other people's minds.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/06/2007 5:25 PM  

Well, I can appreciate what you say, as an individual.
But as I said, it doesn't matter if you don't align yourself with the entire industry.
When you're a walking example of THEIR success.
You're still one less of those whose needs are FAR beyond an individual's.
Gays and lesbians are not individuals to this industry, and there is no picking and choosing the 'good gays from the bad ones.'
And you as an individual don't count then, among that industry.
However, you also mentioned, the way they do...that 'you know many, many', as if to say the success of this industry is in effect among 'many'.

So don't try and say now, that you're just you and a singularity, so there's nothing to worry about from you.

I'm hoping some of the other folks will weigh in on what I'm saying to you.
I'm not gay, never was.

And I've contributed to many blogs and identified myself right away and went ahead with my comment.

And, I am often humbled, pleased and mostly happy...
that gay folks trust me.
Now, when other ex gays have made their comments, they don't seem to be trusted as much as I am.

I don't and won't speak for gay folks.
But ex gays play that 'I was one of you, so therefore I have the authority to speak for ALL gay people.'
Leaving out some important facts.
Such as being complete basket cases, even if they were straight, and then blanketing the whole gay population as the same basket cast they were.

I don't speak for gay folks, I don't even speak for black folks.
I will, however, speak for history, memory, justice and experience...especially with a load of shit when I smell it.

I'm trying to convey to you what your experience is teaching me.

To put it mildly, maybe you have no idea what gay folks are up against, and you're not the kind of person whose really able to commit to what's needed for gay people to get their due.

Perhaps if that was it, I can move on, and not be too hard on you.

But let me tell you...there are some serious people hell bent on doing nothing BUT fucking up gay folks.
Whole websites from family advocates, to religious conservatives to political action committees who represent marriage and military service bans against gay people...
you'd think gay people were worse than terrorists, or gang violence in our streets, or the poverty that plagues millions of America's children.

These folks are spending MILLIONS of dollars to keep gay folks from marrying, rather than put it to better use for the aforementioned.

They think they are at war with gay people, instead of Iraq!
Okay?

So, I tell you what.
Go your way. You're not up for this, you're probably very sweet.
And I wish you no harm.

But...it's gonna take warrior hearts and people who know how to stand up for their identity without losing it, so they can be counted.
And I have to stand up right along with them, as a straight person who isn't following the program either.
I must be counted too...
You must know what the industry is really up to.
It's not hard if you access their websites, or see and hear what their representatives have to say.
That's why it's hard for some of us here to trust you.
Remember, this isn't about just YOU.
Ex gays have broken a profound trust, and the industry, or individuals believe it's right to break that trust, if it gets them Jesus in exchange.
posted by  Regan, at 1/06/2007 7:48 PM  

Um, my friends, whom I know are also very sweet. And they are not part of the industry. And there are lots people that are not.

So,sorry. I will continue to stand up for the very existence of others - ex gay, gay, straight or whatever you so deem yourself - unless of course you arev iolent towards others.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/06/2007 8:50 PM  

Regan, the fight has stop. Gays and religious rights people. And ex gays need to either step up or stand down if they are beuing used (places like Exodus get a good portion of their money donated to them and so the president or front man of that organization has to pretty much say what they want) It's just another way of prostituting for money - although I am sure right now he really believes against gay marriages (maybe someday he will see things differently) But anyhow, if I stand up maybe that will give others the courage to stand up. Remember how Rosa Parks started things?? Or Stonewall being a very small group. Well, I may be one voice and pray that other voices join mine in the future.

It has to start somewhere, don't you think. Your comment about telling me to move along was sweet - but I can only hear the white men now telling Rosa Parks not to start something and wouldn't she be better off just moving to the back so as not to start a problem???
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/06/2007 9:46 PM  

Had Rosa Parks changed her skin color to get the seat at the front, then the analogy would be more accurate.
Often, as I said, the mental and emotional fatigue of gay folks is exploited. And many, suffering...or 'struggling' with their sexuality, change to relieve themselves of having to ride in the back of the bus.
Do NOT invoke the name of Rosa Parks for that reason.
Civil rights activists do not settle into a comfort zone, that is the defining factor that separates ex gays from everyone else.
Ex gays are looking for satisfaction and their own happiness, NOT that of others.
By your very identification as an ex gay, you represent someone who cannot withstand the difficulties and station that being gay is.
The ex gay and anti gay industries are married, and marrying into politics.
It's extremely pernicious and language and dialogue is Orwellian in it's mind boggling reversals and double meanings.

I'm getting that in your mind, I can be ex gay, and as long as I'm not engaged in anything hurtful, it's ok.
My friends and I are living our lives without any hostility towards gay people and we discourage it in others.

I'm not telling you that you should accept the back of the bus, I'm saying that you're not strong enough to do what Rosa Parks did.
And your new identity marks you that way.
The ex gay industry found your weakness, and you're and example of THEIR work.
Not that of a civil rights activist.
No, you took your seat at the middle...or even the back of the bus where the ex gay industry told you to sit.
And cost other gay people in the process, therefore you became a de facto threat to other gay people's freedom and rights.

Therefore you are NOT like a Rosa Parks. NOT a threat to the ex gay industry or their supporters.
You are not a threat to them, and you have to be.

You're a walking contradiction.
You can't defend what you didn't have the tenacity or ability to defend within yourself.
You confuse the issue for those who don't understand gay people. And that's another reason for not engaging anyone as an ex gay.
Confusion doesn't help either. So therefore, it's time to get off the bus.
posted by  Regan, at 1/07/2007 12:13 PM  

I'm standing on your side! No - no one should have to change their sexuality - at all!!! And I will invoke the name of Rosa Parks to stand up for gay rights!

I am not a walking contradiction - you are blinded to the idea that I changed and think that if you want to - go ahead - if you don't then don't. Simple. Everyone has a right to do with their body and mind what they want to. I am stepping away from the old rheteric (sp?) that if you are ex gay then you are anti gay!! I am supporting the civil rights of people - all people whter or not it is biological.

To stand against the ex gay ideology as I am doing has created as much havoc in my own personal life as one can say - believe this - I have been thrown out of ex gay venues for my beliefs and I am ex gay!!!
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/07/2007 12:56 PM  

You know Regan, you make me feel like the malato individual, belonging to both sides but belonging niether to both. Are you saying I should segregate myself from your kind???
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/07/2007 12:59 PM  

Anonymous claims to have been thrown out of places. What a liar. The dude won't give his name because he knows that it will be shown that he got thrown out of nowhere. How tired is this martyr/victim routine?

Anon....you are a big phony loser. And, after reading your posts, I think you are mentally "off". Please seek some help as soon as you can. Get off the Internet and seek a good team of psychatrists.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/07/2007 4:11 PM  

I withstand alot of negative comments. Remember, I was and still am a gay activist. I stood there while the fundies, spit and yelled horrible things at us. I went to political debates. I marched in the parades. I doubt you have ever done so much for the cause as I have. My cause- equal rights.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/07/2007 5:46 PM  

I'll extrapolate this quote Anon "No, I'm on your side! No one should have to change their sexuality!"

But that's not the point, Anon.
The anti gay industry says that because change is not only possible, but done 'all the time by thousands and thousands,' therefore civil rights are not appropriate for someone's 'chosen' lifestyle.'

So, no....you're not mulatto, belonging to both and no one.
You chose the 'white side', the heterosexual side, by all intents and purposes...the better, more superior side.
AND you further validate the insistence that people can change.

So how can you expect that this is something to be respected.
It's now HOW YOU ARE, that matters, it's how gay people are treated.
And no amount of defending gay people will matter coming from an ex gay.
It won't make sense, and it doesn't help anything.
You can jump up and down and tell it to every gay face you know, 'I'm on your side! I love you, I mean you no harm."

What you're not getting Anon, is IT DOES NOT MATTER!
You're right, no one should have to change their sexuality. But that makes no sense coming from people WHO DO.
And the industry invested in it, really doesn't care why.
And mores the point, they don't appreciate the defense of gay people and gay sexuality.
So I KNOW already how one who does that gets treated.

You confuse and confound the situation by being what claim to have done.
And most of all, IT IS HURTFUL to gay people.
So no matter what kind things you have to say about gay people, it rings hollow.
And there is just no way to defend or rationalize it.

We don't know here, if you're male, or female, your age or...what you've been fed to change or think you have. What your motive was.
There may be much in that experience that we are ALL familiar with.
We know what the ex gay industry is up to. But you as an individual are not known well enough on some levels to beat you up too badly.
And you're keeping enough close to the vest, so that is another indicator of the stuff you're not made of.

But the fact remains, BECAUSE we know the ex gay industry and it's usual results, you aren't trusted.
There is no reason to trust that you know what the hell you are doing.
Trust and confidence is a big deal in this issue, Anon.
And you haven't earned it in the way you want us to.
No one should have to change their sexuality....right you are.
No one should EVER have to change their sexuality, particularly in times of threat, coercion, socio/political pressure, inculcation of gay children and their parents.
These are those times, Anon.
You know it. So you gave the industry the oxygen they need, in these times.
You want thanks for that?

WHEN and ONLY WHEN, their tactics and measures are eliminated from our common socialization, and homosexuality is more commonly accepted as naturally inherent as heterosexuality ...will I believe an ex gay altered their sexual behavior for their own ends.

But there is NOTHING that says the common beliefs among the ex gays, has anything to do with orientation, but deprivation that is no indicator of orientation whatsoever.

So, my question is, what makes you think you're straight?
posted by  Regan, at 1/07/2007 8:46 PM  

Why Reagan, do I not have the right to change my sexuality if I want to? Hmmm? Does equal rights mean only some people. I am sorry that you refuse to see that some people do not buy into the poilitcal manuevers of the right on this issue. I am just a person - like you. You are allowed to be who you are. Is the same not true for me?

What makes me think I am straight - um does not having an attraction to my own gender count??

You seem to insist that I have been brainwashed. That's funny - if I pick up your line of thinking then certainly I will have been brainwashed. I am just a woman, who knows the battle of being gay with the rights issues in this country, and a woman who will and still supports the freedom of individuals.

Why is that a gay can go to a gay affirming therpaist if they have trouble being gay but a woman who has been fully accepted by her friends and family who wants a better answer for herself is not aloow to question her sexuality??

Sounds kind of like a double standard to me. But you know you are black and a woman and straight and so get to make the rules for me??

I don't think so. I am who Iam. You may not like it - but someday it is my hope that people will let gays marry and the gays will be a little more friendly towards ex gays who support their cause.

I know - it is asking alot.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/07/2007 9:18 PM  

Regan? I have a question for you? How do you know you are straight? How do you know how black you really are? And have you ever had your DNA tested to check you gender?? Just a question.

Do you see how ridiculous some of the questions you ask are?

Oh, and why do you go to this site? Is it for some hidden meaning or agenda?? Or should I take you on your word because you area straight, black, woman??
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 12:49 AM  

Alright, you asked...I'll explain.
I did not choose to be black, or female or straight.
And NO ONE DEMANDED or EXPECTED me to change those things.

Gay people are expected and it's demanded from them to change at the expense of their identity, freedom, rights and access to the creed of the Constitution.

THAT'S the difference. I was defined by all those things from infancy...
However, I can remember a time when I hated being black and female, because I was bombarded with negative commercial images and socio/political restrictions and threat that made me have to live as a substandard person.
And not trust the people more powerful and in charge of the quality of my life.

There are many women and blacks who have undergone painful, expensive and risky surgery or other things to try and meet the standards of beauty set unrealistically before us.
And standards of conduct have made us objectified us, and made us less human to those not interested in seeing us as human.
This is a stereotype that young blacks to this day still suffer from.
And gay people no less so.

What makes me straight?
I never required religious discipline, social threat and isolation, to know it.
I knew it when I was young, and always remained so.
As do gay children.

You KNOW, you LIVE it from the beginning.
And the only ones who DON'T live it, are under pressure, threat or some other social situation that makes it risky or difficult to reveal their true orientation.

You asked, I answered...and if you were truly straight, you wouldn't have had to be ex gay in the first damn place.
And back to you...you DIDN'T answer my question, so you DON'T know what being straight is, you might know a little about what it means.
It means freedom, it means not having to justify your existence or who you are to anyone or fear that you won't be accepted at face value.

So you HAD to become straight...or at least ex gay (two very different things) to satisfy yourself AND the ex gay industries claims.

The point is, Anon....you are worthless to gay equality and what's required to enlighten the public about gay people's needs.
That's the truth to it all.
And as long as there are people who threaten gay people to be straight, YOUR motives will always be suspect.
It doesn't ring true that your decision was entirely yours.
It sounds disingenuous and it IS to insist that you can do what you want, without explaining why you did it to begin with.

You've said all this, and at no time, did you give any background, but kept going on the defensive.
Wayne Besen knows me personally, we've met and have mutual friends.
Email him and ask him what my identity is.

I'm not anonymous, and there are other blogs I visit and regulars who know me well.

I'm not disputing that you can and are free to do what you want.
I'm just saying that your choice is useless to the dispute of sexual orientation being inherent and immutable and harmful to gay people's fight for their rights and freedoms.

I repeat, your choice is worthless to gay equality and harmful to gay people and the debate on their lives.

Does it not occur to you, that why...no matter WHAT a gay person says, that their orientation was fixed from childhood, that there is no cause or choice they made, the straight world continues to ARGUE with gay people, and demand they change anyway?
Because...all the straight people have to do, is point to people like YOU, and gay people lose the fight.

Please, you must be extremely young, or naive...there is something about you that's not tracking as having the critical thinking required for this discussion.
I'm glad you're here.
But the news isn't going to be about giving you accolades and congratulations....or thanks.

You contribute to what makes gay life so hard, and straight people argumentative.

One more time:
your choice is your own-but you hurt the cause of gay equality and are worthless to it.
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 12:03 PM  

Gay people are expected to change by a few people (no doubt with a lot of money) I don't expect them to change. But if they want to - then go ahead and try.

And that you do not understnad about being ex - gay is about as reasonable as my understand what it is like to be a man. It is not of my experience and I do not know. Same as you - it is not of your experience and you do not understand.

You are not fully black (unless you are straight from Africa) and evryone has the ability to be aroused sexually by their own gender given the right circumstances. And you know full well this is true.

I only asked you because you asked me the question about knowing one's own sexuality. For you it was something that was there for a long time for me it has changed over time.

I used to love root beer and pancakes. Today, I cannot fathom eating those things. Why does my change threaten you?? Because you are afriad of what the right does with it. Me too! That's why I am here.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 12:09 PM  

I told you why this change of yours threatens gay people, not me.
That was a stupid thing to ask.

Tell you what, you seem like someone who REALLY wants validation, and acceptance.

As do we all.
And that is very typical of ex gays, looking for acceptance, understanding...
You seem hurt that you're not getting it so easily here.
You are challenged.

YOU are the threat. Now, you're getting it.
I'm not gay, that's true. So I never said I understand BEING gay, just what injustice and misunderstanding gay people similarly deal with, as have blacks and females.

I told you why your change threatens EVERYTHING that gay people have been fighting.
Anti gay straight people have the nerve to ARGUE with gay people over their origins, identity, orientation and moral and social values, AS IF straight people are the ones solely intimate and understanding of gay people's souls and abilities.

Even by this thread you're leaving, you're proving how little you're understanding what's going on and HOW TO FIGHT IT.

You're not dealing with the issue too well, you're too busy getting defensive and looking for your validation.
It's about YOU, not the issue.
Again, you might be bisexual for all I know.
But instead of informing me and giving more background on yourself and your motives...
You start turning this into an attack on poor you.
You're proving my point all along this thread.
It's just brutal honesty on my part.
But the ex gay industry can be brutal.
Ask those kids forced into their camps.
Ask the street kids I know here in Los Angeles who were forced from home because they couldn't or wouldn't change.

Jeff Griffith Youth Shelter and Convenant House are FULL of kids who couldn't do what you did.
So therefore weren't 'successes', but immorally reprobate 'real' heterosexuals who 'chose' sin over changing BACK to their heterosexual orientation.

I don't care how much you don't accept the ex gay industry, saying you're ex gay is enough to be a turn off.
For all the things I've said before.
Even if YOU weren't exactly physically threatend, a lot of kids and adults are.
And this isn't about YOU...
but all the others...
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 12:55 PM  

BTW dear...you're only the SECOND ex gay that wants gay people to marry and have equality that I've ever had an exchange with.

That's two.
Out of the many other ex gays I've tried to have a dialogue with.

I was dismissed like a bad child, and they continued to devote their WHOLE blogs and church activity to telling the world how dangerous gay people were and had no rights (or shouldn't have) at all that could be supported by our society.
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 1:27 PM  

The megalomaniac Nigerian archbishop and his homophobic collegues will shun the U.S.'s Episcopal Primatial bishop at the Tanzanian summit because she is a woman.
So these savages are not only antigay but also deeply mysogynic.
I wonder what Jesus would do to them.
He never refused to sit at the same table as other people because of their sex or sexual orientation.
I say those man-eating African niggers are simply unfit to be priests, let alone bishops and archbishops.
Cannibalism should not be a Church value in the Anglican communion.

Yvon Thivierge Ottawa
posted by  Yvon Thivierge, at 1/08/2007 1:37 PM  

Regan, you have ingaged me with attacks and insults. I have defended myself. That is NOT looking for validation. I have the validation of self. YOU are looking for something from me and I keep trying to satisfy you. You just DO NOT WANT to hear what comes from my soul - only souls that are like yours.

Anyhow- I think I understand the gay fight a little bit better than you.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 1:43 PM  

Okay, you understand the gay fight better than I do.
Then why aren't you gay anymore? And yes, you have to tell us.
You haven't said a thing from your soul.
You haven't related to us here what was and why, becoming ex gay was so important to you.
And I'm not attacking you.
I simply stated that becoming ex gay is harmful to what gay people have worked hard to articulate.
You take away as much as you think you have given, which leaves nothing.

That's not an attack, it's the TRUTH.
What can it offer what gay people keep saying, when you are the 'living proof' ex gays say all the time exists.
Once again, you only mention yourself and YOUR feelings.
What being ex gay does to OTHER gay people, hasn't been acknowledged by you at all.
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 2:14 PM  

After reading the most recent response to Regan from Anonymous, I feel that it is important that I respond.

I know Regan personally, and I believe that she knows more about this fight than almost anyone I've met. And I believe I have some authority in saying that, as a person who is a gay, white male.

The implication that she knows nothing of the fight is made without knowledge or basis of comparison. I have worked with her personally on projects related directly to this issue, including the Ex-Gay Ministries and their barbaric practices toward individuals with "deviant sexual preferences."

It seems that you are a proponent of the Kinsey scale, judging by your assertion that "everyone" feels some attraction to the same sex. Please remember that there are still those in the extreme minority who do not, and also that it suggests that you are never "ex-gay," but instead only act on the part of your sexual preference for the opposite sex.

If you truly do have the desire to improve the image of people in the sexual minority of the world, please begin within the organizations that practice the therapy that you claim has worked for you, as well as those religious organizations that preach against same-sex attraction and love.

The fact is, by identifying yourself as an ex-gay, you have identified yourself with a community that does not welcome people who are gay, and works actively against gay people. As I see it, your options here are as follows:

You may either work from your end as a newly-straight Christian individual to work with the religious and anti-gay organizations to make them more friendly, with the hope that it will occur and bridge the growing rift between "God" and gay people.

You may choose to identify yourself not as "ex-gay." If you are or are not gay now is not something anyone cares about. If you wish to identify your orientation, and you are attracted exclusively to the opposite sex, then simply say you are straight. That is far less of a slap in the face than identifying as "ex-gay."

Thank you for your time, patience, and understanding in this matter. I wish you luck in changing the perceptions of the world from your position. I don't envy it, and I'm glad I'd never choose to live as "ex-gay."
posted by  Steven Mathias, at 1/08/2007 2:19 PM  

Watch and learn
I don't have to be gay to advocate for gay people.
I'm definitely NOT gay and make know claims that I know what it feels like to be gay.
I already said that.

I don't advocate for gay people because it's easy, fashionable or anything like that.
This is about showing straight people that it's up to GAY people to TELL US what their needs are, not for us straight people to define what gay people are for them.
This is also about showing gay people that it's possible to teach and be respected and engage for no other reason than it's the right thing to do, it's not about WHAT a person is.
But how they are treated.

So this isn't about what you are, Anon.
But how gay people are treated, and part of that treatment is being forced to change.
You are being told simply that what you did, is hurtful to the fight, it doesn't help it.

Why don't you accept that?
Why?
It's a fair and simple observation.
Why don't you ask how I, a straight person, does what I do and for what reason?
Or how I even feel the way I feel to be an advocate?

I don't have to be doing it.
I have no gay children, or close relatives. Nobody close to me died of AIDS or anything like that.
I don't have a gay parent or any reason to be doing what I am compelled to do as a straight person who advocates for the gay.
If you think THAT'S the standpoint you're working from, you're mistaken.
I'm getting the impression you think you can as a now straight person, you can advocate for gay equality too.
And for that, you should be respected.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
I'll told you why.
Because part of the anti gay socio/political agenda is married to the ex gay agenda.
Who they can't change, they will work to destroy.
And they advertise with people like you. Part of their influence is putting people like you up on stage and in serious church services.
You represent a horrible agenda that worked in their favor. That's all.
It IS a contradiction.
Because they don't care who they hurt to make MORE of you.

Now, just accept that you can't do much good when part of why gay people have to defend themselves is because the anti gay insist they can change.
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 2:28 PM  

Regan, I am sorry you think thaat my life is a detriment to the gay rights battle. How dare you?
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 3:00 PM  

Mathias,
I do work on communicating with the relgious right on this subject. I am met with the same disregard as I am met with in this blog.

But if I keep trying, perhaps someday people will respect others for being alive rather than for whatever they happen to be.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 3:02 PM  

BTW, Mathias, Exodus will not publish anything I write or try to contribute to their blog. I guess it is too threatening to them as well.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 3:02 PM  

Anonymous,

Have you considered trying what I recommended by identifying as "straight" instead of "ex-gay"? I would bet it would meet with a lot less hostility on both fronts.
posted by  Steve Mathias, at 1/08/2007 3:27 PM  

How dare I?
That's not a very smart question.
I already told you. And you're defensive again.
I could give you many analogies, and Steve gave you a sound suggestion.

But it's true that ex gays make more out of the conversion, than they do about what straight life is about.
And just saying they are straight.
So, exactly what have you tried to tell these people?
I really want to know.
And you haven't revealed anything about yourself that's important to this discussion.
Like...why you converted, when and what were you doing before?

Don't get mad at me because you're not helping yourself much here for us (or me) to understand you.
And there again, you keep making my point FOR me.
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 3:34 PM  

Just caught something upthread that you said.

"Everyone can be aroused by the same sex if given the right circumstances."

Who says?
And that's not true.
Where you got that from I don't know. But it's a general statement and doesn't make much sense.

But, I have answered more of your questions than you have mine.
Answering WITH a question doesn't count.
Hence, why you're no help at all.
Not to me, or anyone else who peeps this thread.

It would help a lot if you gave some examples of how you address our anti gay detractors, and maybe we can find the common ground we need.
But so far, I'm still waiting, aren't I?
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 3:42 PM  

By saying I am only straight, isn't that denying or witholding an important part of life? Just because gays don't like it - ex gays are here.

Regan, don't mean to be crude here - but if you closed your eyes and engaged in cunninglingus (as the reciever) I doubt it would matter who was doing that (well, as long as they knew what they were doing). So that is what was meant by that statement.

Defensive, you keep asking me to re name myself. I find gays very defensive and hostile against me. I have continually stood my ground. And yes defended my right to be me. Just like gays and blacks do.

I keep saying that ex gays exist and though YOU may see us as a threat there are some of us who are not.

I'm sure some of the folks in Mississippi were a little set off by the white folks coming down to help out, too. Hmmm, and then there were the black activists who were just as racist as the whites. Sounds like the same thing here.

You want me to change my identity for your preference. Go ahead and hate me - in years to come, you may see that someone is trying to reach out without sacrificing her sense of self either.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 4:45 PM  

Anonymous,

It is not something I care about if you change your chosen adjective for identity. Just be aware that your choices do have repercussions.

By the way, if "ex-gay" is different than "straight", please explain why. Specifically, what does this mean in your current sexuality? That you are gay only on days that begin with the letter 'x'?

The reason I recommend identifying as straight is because that is what you ARE. Identifying as "ex-gay" is identifying what you WERE, a fact that is not relevant to the current.

As it has been said many times, remember the past, but don't live in it. You're here, you're straight, get used to it.
posted by  Steven Mathias, at 1/08/2007 4:47 PM  

I would point out also, Anonymous, that it would be similar to calling myself "ex-straight."

Yes, I used to date women, I was attracted to them and sexually involved with more than one. Many gay men have been. The fact is, it is the past. We ARE not straight, we ARE gay. You ARE not gay, you ARE straight.

I don't believe you'd be witholding any important part of your life, because it's not a part of your life any more. You are not gay now.

I could call myself "ex-blonde", or "ex-full-time-employee". None of that is relevent to my life now, or this issue.
posted by  Steve Mathias, at 1/08/2007 4:57 PM  

You may call yourself ex straight if you would like to. That is fine with me.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 5:18 PM  

Being known as ex gay is important to this issue - that yes some gays can change. And yes, gays deserve equal rights. And not all ex gays are brainwashed fanatics who are anti gay.

Mathias, it's not like I go around to the store and work and what not and make declarations. Actually, I truly believe that sexuality is a private and no ones business - since we all have a varied story of our sexuality. And I think it is horrible that the ex gay industry is using people to meet their own political ends. Not right at all. I hope more ex gays step forward and protect our constitutional right to freedom and equal rights. That's why it is important in these kinds of forums to announce that I am ex gay.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 5:23 PM  

Anon,

I will say that I do not see how it is relevent to this issue. The fact that someone MAY be able to change does not have any bearing on whether or not someone deserves equal rights.

Honestly, orientation of any kind is not relevent. People are people. As we are apparently demonstrating here, sexuality, real or perceived, does not constitute a person's political beliefs. We currently have a straight person, a gay person, and an ex-gay/now-straight person all claiming to support equal rights.

Maybe the labels need to end. However, any one of us who chooses to identify ourselves with a label is bound to the consequences that can occur by that label, and should expect nothing different.

The fact is, until the ministries that preach 'ex-gay' therapy change, that label will associate you with an anti-gay agenda.
posted by  Steven Mathias, at 1/08/2007 6:32 PM  

Well, it does make a difference in that the ex gay religious right is using ex gays as an example that gays do not "NEED" exceptions for marriage rights since they can "change". Well, I don't believe that. And I am an ex gay who says "NOT SO!" Not all gays can or want to change. It is their life to do with as they please - and damnit they deserve the right to marry an individual of their own gender - and hec - I deserve that right, too!!

That is why it is important to identify oneself in a certain way. I know it bugs people, I know it may take a while for some to trust that people like me actually exist. Life is funny after all and truth is stranger than fiction. And we all deserve a place in the sun.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 6:42 PM  

Anon, it's not your identifying as ex gay that bothers me.
It's your disingenousness.
EXTREMELY typical of just about every ex gay that I ever read, or watch or hear.

Once again, it went to being all about YOU.
And you WERE trying to be crude, guess it's not in you to have a discussion about gay people without making it about genitals and once one is in the dark, one doesn't know the difference.
I don't want you to change your identity. I want you to be honest with me, and YOURSELF.
I don't want you to change back to being gay, because as a representative of either side, I'm not impressed.

If you want to make analogies about the Jim Crow era, and what civil rights workers had to do:
NOBODY changed their stripes according to the wants of the segregationists.

And ex gays, ARE people that change their stripes, for the comfort of NOT having to live the way gay people are sometimes made to.
And now you come in here and act like your defense of gay people matters to the ex gay movement.
THEY don't care what you think.
It's not a matter now, of getting to be able to choose to be what you want and it's no one's business.
In a world where nobody cared who was gay or not.
And gay people weren't horribly pressured, that would be one thing.

But color and gender aren't EXPECTED to change.
Sexual orientation IS.
So this issue is about NOT convincing anyone that change is possible, because NO ONE gives gay youngsters no choice but between a rock and a hard place.

So your attitude doesn't track.
You're trying to paint yourself up as a martyr to me treating you bad.
Again, all I'm trying to tell you is, don't compare apples and oranges to what I'M doing, but what the tactics and activity of anti gays and the ex gay industry are doing.

You lost your qualifications when you left your gay card behind.
Every time you have something to say, you put words in my mouth, and make suggestions about what I am, rather than who YOU are and how you can possibly qualify now to say that gay people shouldn't change or can't.
Still don't know anything about you, except that you don't hate gay people.

That still doesn't qualify you to defend gay people.
You're defending gay people AS people, but you can't possibly defend HOMOSEXUALITY, and that is the biggest problem of all that you're not getting.
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 7:07 PM  

But you Regan no matter what you say are overlooking a very simple fact - I am unlike you, I am unlike gays and I support civil rights for all. So what if I had changed my stripes in some way - who cares.

Making it about me - since you have attack me - then I will talk about. YOU keep talking about ME in some way so I will respond about me.

So you have a narrow mind - what am I do to with it. I can't enlarge it. I can only say what I have said. I'm ex gay, we do exist, we do support gay rights/civil rights.

You FEEL that I am not for real - but you do not know that for sure. So why don't you give me a chance to be just a regular person who fights the good fight. I am not disqualified from being a freedom fighter just becasue I changed. I am not asking anyone to live my life - save they learn to accept others without moral judgment.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 7:22 PM  

Tell you what, join me and the gang over at
www.exgaywatch.com

Join us, you could learn a lot.
So, now I have a narrow mind. Were my friends to witness this exchange, and I'll see if any want to take the time, you're not making a very good impression.

1. I've already said I don't know enough about you, and don't want to beat you up, but since you're STILL not saying anything more or educational for me, you have to right to get upset and criticize me for NOT knowing you.

2. I told you it's not how you identify yourself now, it's how you think I'm supposed to react to it, again, NOT knowing why you did it or all the facts about your motives.
So again, DON'T criticize me for thinking your identity is enough and it's all good.

3. I'd be HAPPY to tell you more about myself, but I'm not the one working to change myself against a formidable agenda that WANTS me to.
I don't require the same understanding, GAY people do.

4. You're right, you're not like me, I don't expect you to be.
But YOU seem to think it sufficient to be sincere about equal rights for all, and YOUR identity doesn't matter. But it does.
And I'm sick of you denying that.

And you've completely skipped over a very important point I made.
You want to defend gay people, AS just people.
But you can't defend HOMOSEXUALITY.
And that's what is THE issue when discussing the ex gay industry and THEIR motives...not YOURS.

Don't call me anymore names, it's childish and low rent for the nature of what needs to be discussed.
So, you want me to respect you, first I have to know WHAT you are...and how you got that way, now DON'T I?
There was no process for me to become black, and female and straight.
But there WAS a process to loving it and being proud of it and working with it when it was hard to be all those things, and sometimes still is.

But there is a process to becoming ex gay, right?
But it's roots are in hatefulness and rejection of being gay and people who are gay.
Right?

So don't get mad at me if I hate that and want to do something against making people feel that way.
I don't trust the ex gay industry, and have no reason to, do I?

So, that doesn't make me narrow minded, that makes me sensitive to what a gay person is made to feel.
I've been there, and usually when someone tells me they've REJECTED their gay orientation, it makes me sad.
Sad to think there is one less to be counted when there are so few.
Sad to think that in our century people still have primitive and brutal responses to gay people and homosexuality.
I can't be happy for someone ex gay....because the process to be that way is usually difficult and bears little fruit, after much sacrifice.

The only people I don't feel sorry for after a discussion, are ex gays who are disingenuous, or outright arrogant about their new identity.
Maybe you're not arrogant, but you're frustratingly in denial about parts of this discussion.
Which makes bridge building and a coherent unity with you tiresome, if not impossible.

If you really want to participate in something worthwhile, than Wayne is the way to go.
So are the people at ex gay watch.

There I offered you something where you have given nothing.
posted by  Regan, at 1/08/2007 7:47 PM  

No the roots of change are not in hatefulness of being gay. I personally am not into self loathing - though I see a lot of gays doing it. For some it may be.

Talk about low rent?? Puuullleeeze. You have walked in the territory enough times yourself.

Wayne denies that ex gay people exist so I do not agree with him

And I have been to ex gay watch. I think what some of the religious right does is outrageous if not criminal.

You know- you are in denial. You want a world that exists only the way you say it does. Unfortunately, you may have some blind spots, too.

And yes homosexuals are just people - nothing more, nothing less. And being a person does not make you less important. It makes you human.

Really this issue is not about homosexuality - it is about discrimination, predjudice, hate, mistreatment, coercion, dictatorship and the list goes on. And it is about power over another group. A really good book to read is Thy Kingdom Come by Randall Balmer.

It was fantastic - maybe you'll understand me better after reading that or at the very least browsing it.

You know - you will never know the depth of my concern. You sound like a great person but you can't accept that I do see somethings different from you and yet, I support freedom.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/08/2007 8:30 PM  

"No, the roots of change are not in hatefulness."
Another disingenuous statement.
Once again, you didn't address what I said about the PROCESS of changing.

And again, I have to hear about what you know civil rights is about. I don't know, again...although I asked you what, YOUR process was.
You went straight to a general statement about your motives to be active for gay people, but not why and how you changed.

And again, the quote above reflects an ex gay attitude.
"Change is not about hate, it's about being one in Christ, becoming whole and turning away from sin and struggle."

Alright, so far, I DON'T know you from the others, you don't stand out as being different and you're not helping me think any other way of you, and you're getting more nasty with each post, but still...NO HELPING the exchange.

Sad...all this time spent. And it's come to so little worth the time.
Somehow, I knew it would.
posted by  Regan, at 1/09/2007 1:17 AM  

Regan, I did not quote the old christian rhetoric that you posted. So those are words that you decided I was thinking. You are probably very angry and making assumptions based on your other experiences with christians. Also, that you took my statment out of context - please finish the statment next time if you want to quote me. It is not about hate - it is about (please go back and read the post)

As far as telling of my process of change - since I am not here to "convert" anyone - I do not see how it is releveant to anyone. In addition to the fact that I have heard as varied an experience in changing as there are flavors of ice cream. It always looks a little different from the next person. My motives were for me and no one else. It did not change my believe system. I just changed my perspective on my sexuality - what bother's you so much about that?? I really do not understand that. It's the same as thr right being bothered by homosexuality. So two wrongs do not make a right (no pun intended)

As far as the nasty goes - girl - "you gots t'look in yo own mirra" You don't like me pointing out to you that you too have blind spots, areas of assumptions based on past experiences, lacking knowledge etc... We all have that. Me and you and everyone involved in this.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/09/2007 9:40 PM  

Anonymous,

If you are the same anon from the very beginning of the discussion, I can't but admire your patience and willingness to take crap. Really. Some of the comments here are way out of line. Don't let em drag you down to their level though, come on. You were doing so well.

For what it's worth (probably very little) I don't think your attitude/approach is damaging to the gay rights movement. Calling yourself 'ex-gay' does not in and of itself mean you oppose gay rights. But it does undercut the assumption that sexual orientation is immutable. Much of the gay rights advocates' strategy has been built on that assumption, so in that respect, Regan and others have reason to worry.

As an aside, I don't think these strategies need to be built on that assumption, and I also don't think it's The Immutable Truth. Life is weird and wonderful, sexuality even more so. Who's to say what can and can't happen? Even if I would say: ex-gay therapy doesn't work, that doesn't mean I can say: no one's sexuality has ever changed at all. I don't know that.

I do agree with other commentators that your particular story of change is relevant. Not because you're trying to tell anyone: 'you can do this too', but because telling your story in full, rather than simply carrying a label, can further understanding.

I think it would be helpful to your cause (as I understand it: recognition that ex-gays exist, and protest *from* ex-gays against the ex-gay industry's oppressive political agenda) if you told people on any side who you are and where you're coming from.

That doesn't mean you have to give them your name and address, I understand completely if you don't want to. But you could set up a simple website or blog (or MySpace for all I care) giving yourself a onscreen name and explaining where you're coming from, what you believe and what you strive for. If you comment on any forum or blog like this, you can then use that handle and point people to your story, if they are interested.

I think it would help keep discussions from getting quite so nasty and repetitive if you had a kind of FAQ site to point people to. It could include things like "I'm female". You know, even just a few really basic points could be very helpful.

I'm not here to tell you what to do, I just really think that would help you get your message across more powerfully and build more trust and understanding (and hence the power to actually change people's minds, rather than the power to merely annoy them.) ;)

As for me, I'm Willie Hewes, I'm a girl who draws comics. The only real way I'm at all involved with the gay or ex-gay movements is through a mini-comic I drew about a teenager who's sent to an ex-gay program. You can read it here: http://66.197.210.102/~witchcra/freez/freezindex.html
posted by  Willie Hewes, at 1/10/2007 9:09 AM  

Willie, thank you!
Anon, I tried to tell you I wasn't there to beat you up, but you invited in, even without my intention, because you NEVER got into the context of what I was saying regarding social context, but YOUR own context.

And then, you didn't provide enough information-and then accused me of being narrow minded!
Inconsiderate, given I had only narrow information to work with.

I know the ex gay industry well, but not enough ex gays.
And not for lack of TRYING, but for lack of honesty, openness and intelligent review of social and historical context WITHOUGH a sermon from the Bible.
You, Anon, have NO idea how hard I've tried for YEARS, with no cooperation-and you seemed just as uncooperative on this subject, which is obviously VERY important to me.
And I did, tell you, that I'd rather try to understand you better and find a bridge building component, but you wouldn't engage.
You kept everything on the surface, giving me nothing to work with.
Admonishments, as you were VERY eager to give, didn't help.
Without your gender, age, experience, education, or how you have addressed the anti gay in the past, although you said you have. You gave me nothing (or at least NOT ENOUGH)...but admonishments.
Which made it hard for me not to scold you right back.
See what I mean?
You didn't help yourself OR me.
Which is why, I couldn't possibly believe much of what you said.
There is more to fighting this very bad situation, than just saying you did it.
One has to reveal strategy to the others. Historical context (being younger for example greatly influences perspective.)
YOU were unfair. I was far more forthright and provided historical context than you.
So, now what will you do?
Not return to the thread, give up?
I am a strong ally. Ask Steve Mathias.
I could teach you how to be stronger.
Because in this thread you reveal exactly why I am not too trusting of your ability to handle what's happening.
Willie, your observation was much appreciated!
Thank you!
posted by  Regan, at 1/10/2007 12:47 PM  

Willie, I've enjoyed your cogent website, and wistful, powerful "eg-gay" comic. Thank you.

Apropos very little at all, here (Scotland) Willie is only ever a male name, but Billie is sometimes a girl.
posted by  Phil, at 1/10/2007 12:53 PM  

Scolding me??? You got that right. You are not in control of my writing and I deliberately chose not to address some issues. They are not pertinent to the discussion that ex gays do exist and they don't all hate homosexuals and some even support gay rights.

It will always stay on the surface with you - you are not allowed into my private, private world. But I will say who I am and make a stand. I need not prove that I am who I am.

I just tried to get you to a t the very least recognize that not all ex gays are the way you think they are.

I do not need to tell you anything of my journey other than here I am. BTW, I have never been to any one of those camps or programs homes or whatever those cult classics are.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/10/2007 4:14 PM  

Regan, I will not reveal anything that lead to my doorstep. You have read the foul blogs posted here. I would not do that to myself.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/10/2007 4:25 PM  

But again, I must maintain. If you did not refer to yourself as ex-gay, you would not be met with such hostility. And as Steven said earlier and I've said on numerous occasions. If you are straight, you are straight, not ex anything. It doesn't matter what you were, it's what you are. I don't call a tranny an ex male or ex female. They are what they are. You are what you are. You are not what you were.
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/10/2007 8:18 PM  

But you call 'em a tranny refering their past??

As I said, I do not refer to myself as ex gay in the general public - but in this forum I do for the purpose of introducing the idea that not all ex gays are anti-gay nor do we all campaign against gay rights and marriages. In addition, I support gay rights and marriages.

I know the hostility is there. I accept that. In time, this may change. As well, I hope ex gays get off their high horse of judgment and begin to support the constituion of the country they live in.

With every new idea, comes hostile confrontation. I guess that is just human nature.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/11/2007 10:12 AM  

Anon, I didn't ask for your name, address and phone number.
I asked for your age, gender...color or ethnicity might help, so would religion
Which one you might have been born into, or the one you acquired.

Fair questions, and information that won't reveal anything that would harm you.
However, I am just as vulnerable, if not moreso, to nuts-because I DO reveal more than you.

But that's life as a civil rights activist-taking risks and dares.
At least, for me.

If that's not for you, fine.
But-since you won't give me any social context in which to place you for a FAIR discussion, there isn't anything that can be offered.
You can't even be bothered to talk about what helped your decision and exactly what kind of discipline you're pursuing.

You're welcome to send me and email if it would make you feel safer.
And I won't share it.
I'm used to discretion because of all the gay youth I know, who aren't out yet. Not even to their folks.
Being a straight female helps give them cover, and gives their parents a sense of security of my integrity.

But, don't give me any more of this pap about how afraid you are to reveal any more than this little bit, and then no wonder you THINK I'm 'narrow minded.'
Being afraid isn't a good mix for the stuff of a committed civil rights activist who gets the work done.
You're not even asking me any questions about how I became committed to this issue as an advocate.
The thread could teach you, but all you do is rationalize not informing ME.
That's no way to convince me now that I was wrong about how you aren't much of a contender to fight the fight the way it needs to be fought.
I don't want to hear what you CAN'T or don't feel like doing.
I want to hear about what you DID, CAN and HOW.

If you think you don't owe it to the likes of me,
then strategizing together on the equality issue isn't your cup of tea, is it?
And a smart activist would see an ally, and wouldn't work so hard as you do...to offend them.
posted by  Regan, at 1/11/2007 12:27 PM  

I just realized another quality about ex gays that is distinct and hard to respect.

On one hand those invested in it brag about existing, about how effective the process is, that there are many, many thousands who succeeded...
but won't reveal how it happened or are VERY dismissive 'I am ex gay, and that's all I have to tell YOU, so there!'

It's imperious. It gives the impression, that you're SO private now, and above any challenge to your testimony...and the rest of us are so lucky you BOTHER with us to tell us this much about yourself.
You make yourself sound important (I'm keeping facts from you because a lot of people will be after me).
Or you use the issue of rights 'I have the right to be what I want, without criticism from the rest of you about MY decision!'

Again, with little context in which to frame a discussion.
This is COMMON among ex gays.
You've displayed this same attitude here, Anon.
And you're not helping ANYONE by doing it.
Especially yourself or those who need to articulate what we need to know to be most effective, together.
You aren't ANY different than the most virulent anti gay ex gay.
We CAN'T know any different because you don't distinguish yourself in any way.
And don't understand what you'd need to do to help that situation.
If we don't understand you, that's no one's fault but yours.
It's not the fact that you became ex gay that annoys me, and I told you that.
It's how dishonest or withdrawn you are about how you did it and why.
And you saying that I am, solely for the reason is that you're ex gay, is a lie.
You didn't and could'nt misinterpret me saying exactly that before.
But it reveals how much you want to be a VICTIM.
How much you want to rationalize some form of paranoia you have 'someone's out to get me, so I won't say anything other than I'm ex gay'.
And another post said as much, that you see yourself as a victim.

More and more, OUR assessment of you is becoming accurate.
You know what to do to make us think otherwise.
But if you can't be bothered...than neither should you expect us to believe you.
posted by  Regan, at 1/11/2007 12:43 PM  

That's ccalled intimidation. I don't buy that form of concession.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/11/2007 2:05 PM  

There is no way to give the benefit of the doubt here.
You insult with such hit and run, dismissive posts.
If you're the same Anonymous who has posted along this thread.
I see what the problem was all along.
posted by  Regan, at 1/11/2007 7:14 PM  

"But you call 'em a tranny refering their past??"

Correction, they call themselves transexual and the relevence is that they are a group of people who face discrimination and violence on a daily basis, moreso than any gay man or woman. Calling yourself "ex-gay" does nothing short of raising temperatures and tempers and making you the object of suspician. I challange you to go to another gay blog or website or chatroom and introduce yourself. Do not refer to yourself as ex gay, but instead let them know in subtle terms that your orientation has infact changed. Some may still be hostile, but I would bet my hands that if you didn't use the term, most people wouldn't get as angry with you.

Furthermore, as I've stated on a number of occasions, Wayne and activists like him have nothing against individuals who may have altered. It is the institution. It is the whole ex-gay movement that is in question. When you refer to yourself with that terminology, you become one of them, whether you are or not. Just as the second I say I am gay, misinformed straight folks think I am a flaming queer who dances naked at pride parades and sleeps with everything in pants, provided they are male, and farm animals.

That is why the gay community strives to educate the general public on exactly who we are, and that we are unchangable, but the only difference sex and how we do it.

Have you ever read Don Quiote? I sometimes feel like you are fighting windmills on Wayne's blog and you are never going to win the fight. If in life you are trying to explain something to someone, and they do not understand, or cannot comprehend, the best plan is to stop and try it again in another way; in other words. Ex-gay has gotten you no where. And I fear it never will. Try it again; in other words.
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/11/2007 8:40 PM  

Well if you are not a flaming queer and I am not a hateful person, then I guess you know how I feel. Sorry - just as transexuals use the term to define themselves, I am going ex gay to define a different kind of ex gay person.

Oh - I remember when calling someone a dyke was cruel then we womyn took it back and now it is a word of strength and pride.

The hostility doesn't bother me as much as the overwhelming relcutance to give it up. And from a group that calls itself socially tolerant and open minded.

It's as if people enjoy hating someone. Oh and let's not forget to not use the n word??? I think it is a pretty negative term but hey some use it.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/12/2007 6:50 PM  

That's all fine and dandy, and as I've said, I really don't care what you call yourself. That's up to you. But I'm not going to go out of my way to use a term that offends 99 per cent of the people posting on a certain blog. It just seems to me that you are pushing the envelope, demanding that people should not be offended by the term, and through it all, you are furthering hosilities, not stopping them. That's all I'm saying. You've even got Regan pissed off. So maybe a gay person is greatly offended by the term "ex-gay" and we could say that that gay person is over sensitive. Regan is a straight woman, and she's offended by the terminology. Shouldn't this tell you something? I'm not trying to judge. I'm trying to understand. It just makes no sense to me.
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/12/2007 11:21 PM  

Anonymous...you have so little to contribute.
Why are you here?
posted by  Regan, at 1/13/2007 11:53 AM  

There is an agenda. I just haven't figured it out. Whether she's Captain Ahab, Don Quiote, or something more sinister, I don't know. But it doesn't matter. I'm throwing up my hands. My anonymous friend cannot or will not listen to reason. After this blog post she won't be around anyway and this is probably best for her as well. This obsession cannot be healthy. Perhaps the best thing she can do is open her own blogsite, where she can invite all people who identify as ex-gay and still stand up for gay rights and hate the christian coaltion can go. I just think she might be alone there.
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/13/2007 4:59 PM  

Of course I am pushing the envelope. And so what if the term offends 99% of the people. I don't want to - but then it is their choice to be offended - after all I have said. I am only choosing to be recognized as a person who is ex gay and is not anti gay.

Somehow, the rules that work for gays and other minorities to call themselves what they want to (and offend others) is not acceptable for all people to do.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/13/2007 6:04 PM  

It's a matter of why people take offense to the terminology. People are offended by people being gay, because they are misinformed about homosexuality in general. People are offended by the term ex-gay because the ex-gay establishment is what is keeping us from attaining equal rights. There is a huge difference. But as I said, I'm throwing my hands up. I can't dialogue with you on this issue any longer because you don't get it. You as an individual are not the issue. You never have been.
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/13/2007 6:55 PM  

blah, blah...Anonymous...blah, blah...
So you're ex gay...and?
posted by  Regan, at 1/13/2007 7:45 PM  

Well, offended you may be - but you can choose to see that not all ex gays are alike. I guess that's the same thing you are saying JH - were are people - not to be all lumped in with the worst of them - even if the worst of them happens to be in the forefront of the media. And again - I am supporting gay rights. Another reason it is important to stand out as an ex gay. Otherwise - should we have this conversaton in the future over coffee and we never had this dialogue here - you might spit on me. ( just a bad joke from the days when I stood in between the fundies and the parade participants)
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/13/2007 8:14 PM  

Do you have any idea, Anon...that you're repeating yourself, and you're saying ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the subject at hand, or how you would go about articulating your defense of gay people, given your identity?

All you do is say you're ex gay and support gay rights.
And nothing more.

If you think that's sufficient, at a website where socio/political news, strategies and mention of activity is important...you are mistaken.
And out of your element.
You're doing the broken record routine now.

'I'm ex gay, I support gay rights, really. I'm ex gay, I support gay rights, really.
I'm ex gay, I support gay rights, why not believe me? I'm ex gay, I support gay rights, why are you offended? I'm ex gay, I support gay rights, I am ex gay, I support gay rights, I'm ex gay, I support gay rights.'

If you don't get by now, that you're not contributing anything here, so therefore your ability to contribute is suspect now, then saying...'I'm ex gay, I support gay rights', AGAIN, not only doesn't help the tenor of discussion here.

But makes you sound like an ex gaybot.
If I'm wrong about that, that's nobody's fault, but YOURS.
posted by  Regan, at 1/14/2007 11:33 AM  

Regan, I keep repeating myself so that you get the point. It keeps being overlooked. You want to bring ancillary issues (which I am not responding to at the present). I am staying focused on one item. One item only - that you refute that people like myself exist. So I repeat the statment, over and over again. Once that idea takes hold - then maybe we can move on to something else. It is important, just as in the days when gays stood up and said we're queer, we're here. Minority people cannot be overlooked. Well - you may choose to overlook if you want - and that's the same trap you accuse other of towards African Americans.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/14/2007 11:43 AM  

BTW Anon..I'm off to attend a Williams Project Meeting this morning in Los Angeles.
The Williams Project is the gay and lesbian legal think tank within UCLA Law School.

Several years ago, I wrote a legal precedent to examine the possibility of a class action lawsuit against the ex gay industry.
Specifically Exodus, Love Won Out and Love In Action.
Or any YOUTH directed ex gay ministry or therapy.
The Federal Trade Commission hadn't been called in yet, to determine standards and practices, and groups like Exodus haven't been challenged to reveal their efficacy and methods.

They are not a church, nor a religious school. Which still wouldn't be exempt if standards and practices came close to coercion and abuse of students.

The ex gay industry is entirely invested in emotional blackmail, and exclusively the emotional blackmail of GAY people.

Now, that's what I'm doing instead of going to church.

Now, I can name some specifics of MY advocacy and activity.
Saying you're much more tame for the protection of your identity or your person, doesn't sound like a committed activist.
I told you, you have to come out of your comfort zone to be effective.

That's how the work gets done.
Repeating over and over what an activist you are, without specifics, dates, times...and place and who you protested against, makes your statement become worthless.
Not only that, all you said is you were spat upon...well, what EXACTLY were you doing to invite such a response?
Were they a gay person, or an anti gay person?

I have reason to ask. Was your protest well publicized? Or what part of the country do you live so that we might know the sort of people you would have to deal with?

This is what I mean about what kind of activist you'd have to be.
My BULLSHIT meter has gone off with you.
There is no reason to believe something you're not saying.
Feel me?
posted by  Regan, at 1/14/2007 11:46 AM  

BTW, I never went to an Exodus, Love Won Out, or wahtever without some political statement being made. I think they should be stopped if they entangle their spirtuality with politics. NO matter if they are a 503 b or 503 c
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/14/2007 2:03 PM  

No sistah. I don't get the feeling that you get me either. And of course I don't register on your meter, you need to create something that can even recognize this simple idea. There is nothing to prove, nothing to demonstrate - save this blog has been a learning experience of the intolerance and intimidation of gay activists (on the whole).
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/14/2007 3:10 PM  

Anon....you're rationalizing staying on one point over and over, so I'll get it?

Alright, WAY OFF THE CHART bullshit.
Not another soul here is buying it either.
posted by  Regan, at 1/14/2007 7:27 PM  

I can't get what isn't explained to me.
I already told you, you have SAID NOTHING that contributes to ANY discussion about rights, how to get them, and how to articulate that to the anti gay.
You're playing a very immature and not very funny game here.
I'm not your 'sistah', condescension isn't suprising coming from you...told you that already too.

I just got back from my Williams Institute meeting I'm pleased to say that another team of attorneys, some of them students and interns are eager to take what and who I can bring to the institute for analysis.
And Wayne, for sure...is gonna love it.
His work can combine with that of WI.

And what did YOU do today?
posted by  Regan, at 1/14/2007 7:32 PM  

Anon, all you had to say...to make a start...is to say that you've gone to Exodus and what you came away with, and you couldn't be bothered to even mention it until now, when I'm tired of you.
Shame isn't it?

And you're giving me that 'wha happun'? attitude as if I shouldn't have lost patience and I'm intolerant now.
I'm intolerant of obfuscation. I'm intolerant of a person who lacks intellectual honesty and I'm intolerant of people who mind fuck someone, when a serious discussion is warranted.

I'm not intolerant of ex gays. I'm intolerant of typical ex gay bullshit you displayed here.
Yeah...and since you weren't specific about WHAT kind of intolerance, I did it for you.

I don't have time for you. I have people to call, research and info to gather.
Why don't you try it?
posted by  Regan, at 1/14/2007 7:38 PM  

Oh trust me Regan, I am out of my comfort zone. And I continue to push on those who are comfortable being anti- gay. You may not want to church. That's fine but for people who do it is as significant an event as you going to an activist meeting. When are you going to realize that not everyone performs a goal in the same way you would have them do so??

You have continually proded and poked and pushed and imposed your idea of what I should be doing. I don't know your agenda if there is one - often thinking to myself that you will try anything to get me to reveal more about myself. In any event, my agenda is very simple, to make a statement - the one you call blah blah blah - but one that can be very important to civili rights and that is an ex gay can support gay rights and mariiages without sharing similar views on relgious or personal choices. I fully support other people to be free to choose what life they want - even if they didn't live the way I want them too - like you wanting me to act in a specific way for your comfort level.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/14/2007 11:51 PM  

Regan, you have a lot to learn about teaching others, learning and social transition.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/14/2007 11:55 PM  

Let me add to that - those who went to the synagogue, mosque, temple, church, found and continue to find significance in that event.

While you are doing research papers and calling people I am running a business, helping my family adjust to new situations, sharing time with an old woman, and helping my mother this week end. Now if that is not activism in action - tell me what is?
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/15/2007 12:11 AM  

No, I didn't impose my idea of WHAT you should be doing.
I don't know what you're doing.
I was curious before. I asked you outright, who you are.
What motivated you to become ex gay, and how you went about it, and in what way you are ex gay.
Don't know your age, don't know your gender...don't know anything about you to HELP me NOT draw my own unflattering conclusions about you.
And when I did, you cry foul.
You're still doing it.
I've learned nothing ABOUT YOU.
And not for want of trying to make this a more meaningful, and purposeful thread.

What you are doing is teasing.
I don't know why, and maybe I'm past caring.
I only mentioned what I was up to, to perhaps prompt you to share something about yourself.
And you did it in a teasing way, as I'm sure...because now, any hope of a more civil discourse has pretty much been destroyed.

You've twisted this whole thread around in such a way, that's very cagey in spirit.
Why?
This isn't about you being LIKE me, but telling me how you WOULD go about your work, or anything else as a means of strategy.
I was curious, I was interested and really wanted to know.
But you started teasing and frustrating and doing this dance.
I would have LOVED for things to have worked out differently.
But I see what kind of person you are in an indirect way, because you left me no choice.

What time you've spent to post, as I already said. Such a waste.
How easy it is for you to sit back and criticize me for trying, while you couldn't even meet anyone, let alone me, halfway.
Only because I'm the only one who cared enough to bother.
I don't know what it gives you to tease like that.
But that's what it is. And most often, that's a cruel way to behave towards someone, and then criticize them for their response to it.
I won't respond to you anymore, so you might as well stop.
posted by  Regan, at 1/15/2007 1:24 PM  

That you did not figure out that I would not give you information is not teasing - as I stated several times that I would not.

I'm glad you asked but you did not like the answer.

You seem mostly angry and frustrated with the idea that I am not like most people who roll over and engage in the argument that you seem to want.

By maintaining my peace - you only became more and more determined to agitate me into a response that woul reveal more of myself than what I told I would not do.

It was not teasing in any form but plain honesty and sticking to my rules that I have set for myself that you do not like.

Sorry, Regan but you have insulated me by saying that my very life was not contributing. That's a pretty heafty statment about any person on this earth.

Now, go on and get back to your envelopes and phone calls. For whatever it is worth, no matter what, it is your life and it is a good life.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/15/2007 9:11 PM  

Unflattering conclusions is a euphemism for some of the things you have said. Why is it that people draw conclusions of the worst sort before the best???

I don't know about you, but you sound like a judgemental person. You had evry opportunity to respond in a better way. That Regan, has been your choice to show your true colors - just like every other discriminating person.

Just a thought - that maybe you are very similar to the very people you protest against. It is human nature to fear and to hate those we have wronged. It isn't right, but we all do and must continue everyday to overcome our own predjudices.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/15/2007 9:20 PM  

I do have a question. Why do you try to analyze me, without addressing everything I said?
Why do you turn around my words and use them against me?
Now the label is judgemental.
I'm assuming you're referring to me judging you.
Then you go on an analysis that I am much like who I protest against.

How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Let me tell YOU about myself, then.
Again.
I told you what I was intolerant of and why.
I have told you why I do not trust the ex gay movement and sometimes ex gays in particular.
And your behavior here hasn't been much different from their's.
In that, you don't want to share any specifics of why or how you got there, but are extremely VAGUE.
And being VAGUE, if you don't know very many other ex gays, is common in that group.

Now, as for keeping score about whose activism is more authentic, I can't go there with you because you were also vague about YOUR actual activity.

I for one, have seen a committed and aggressive action to make black Americans vote against gays and lesbians and criticize gay and lesbian equality as civil rights.
I am working VERY hard as a writer, to bridge this artificially created rift.
I have much experience with it, and those who know me...and NOT YOU, are learning from the words I use and the way I go about it.
I told you also, that the gay community trusts me, and includes me...and if they have an issue with YOU, I also tried to explain to you why.

And what happens...you come here and make statements towards me as if I'd said nothing, and that I'm prejudiced.
Again, that's vague and non specific.
If I have any prejudices at all...they are superficial and rarely have to surface, because they are few.
But putting me in the category of being like who I protest against,
well no, that's not it.

I have similar tenacity, but I definitely DON'T have THEIR prejudice.
There will always be substance to what I have to say.
I won't be vague and I won't be uninformed or inexperienced before I say something.
And I will be HONEST when asked.
You never have to assume a thing about me.
And when YOU asked a question, I answered you.
And further...
I was honest too about when and why you annoyed me.
That has nothing to do with prejudice.

Now, I gave you the respect to explain myself, motives and why I do what I do and who I most address.

But you have never returned the courtesy, and feel no obligation to.

I'm not prejudiced...I know when someone is being contrary, and for what?
And there is no reason to respect someone who isn't making an APPROPRIATE contribution to THIS forum.
And still, you feel like making a judgement call?
You made the wrong call, in the wrong forum, for the wrong reasons.

I don't stuff envelopes.
I am a writer. Mostly on the subject of hate crimes, and socio political history.
I have a broadcast radio forum, at KABC Talkradio, and I belong to several advocate groups and anti hate organizations.
For several years I worked as a forensic photographer with the LAPD.
That helped me gain and access to crime information and incidents.
That helps me frame arguments against the straw man 'menace to society' picture the ex gay industry is always painting about gays and lesbians.

Gaining the trust to do my work for ANYONE, requires a commitment to analysis and information.
NOT prejudice.
If you were smart, I wouldn't place labels.
So far, you've been wrong about me, no matter what I say.
Wayne trusts me, so do several of the other members who post at this blog.
And you're not helping them trust YOU.
It's not prejudice that makes that happen.
It's YOUR lack of commiting to this forum in a way that would mean something.
Blaming other people for that, is immature and stupid.
And again, serves nothing but antagonism.

I'll ask you again, if you have nothing to contribute.
Even your experience and motives and how that shapes your opinions,
Then why are you here?

Because being antagonistic, by way of disingenuous behavior isn't helping anything or anyone.
posted by  Regan, at 1/16/2007 1:26 PM  

If I could have said all this in less words.

You don't want to help, or work together or communicate your needs, dreams, background.
You don't want any help here, so you won't get it.

And saying it's prejudiced to not know who you are or how to talk to you...doesn't say much about you, not us...or me.

A prejudiced person wouldn't ask you any questions or try to know about you as different from their prejudices.

You had every opportunity to say something.
And you couldn't be bothered.

The responsibility for that, is yours.
posted by  Regan, at 1/16/2007 1:41 PM  

Regan, I don't want to devote all of my time to ex gay and gay issues. I have other important (more pressing items on my agenda) like helping the poor.

That I also put on my list that I am going to be a voice as an ex gay and speak out against anti gay rhetoric by the christian right does not mean that I have to devote most of my time to the issue.

Now - you have equated my lack of actions that you think I should take with my thoughts?? Where do you get these ideas???

Do you think the poor are more in need of my time than gays are?? I do.

You make such leaps of judgment that I can hardly believe it coming from an activist.

I know you are VERY passionate about this issue. So go do what you do - I will do what I do. It doesn't mean I am any less sincere - it does mean that there is a bigger picture from my view about who needs what help.

Blogs, meetings, letters, stand ins, sit downs, pickets, face to face confrontations etc.... It takes alot of work.

Don't I know it.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/16/2007 4:50 PM  

I only remark that you attack and do not listen.

I don't turn your words against you, I point out how your words demonstrate an attitude.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/16/2007 4:51 PM  

The predjudice comes when you jump to conclusions - that's your action - not mine.

I am not asking for your help BTW - just a little understanding - that no, I will not reveal more about myself. Just accept that fact that ex gays exist and not all of us are anti gay. That's it.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/16/2007 4:54 PM  

Alright, I never said ex gays didn't exist. And I only know ONE other ex gay that isn't anti gay.

I accept that ex gays exist.
And what you see here...isn't an ACTION, but a REACTION.

Most often ex gays have been dishonest, disingenuous, and disrespectful..ESPECIALLY to those who are gay, or those, like me, who support gay people.
And I already told you, I don't know enough about you to understand, or judge.
Accept that.
Fair?
posted by  Regan, at 1/16/2007 5:55 PM  

But you have made alot of assumptions about me and judgmental statements. I did not make you say those things - you did that all on your own.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/16/2007 6:08 PM  

Rest assured, if you study what Wayne is doing. And what the bloggers at ex gay watch discuss, we are a very smart group.
You want understanding? Then you'll see there are some who have had your experience as an ex gay, or someone who has the best of both worlds...religious AND gay.
If you have time to post here, you have plenty of time to read the articles.

I'm glad you're not to invested in the ex gay industry, because it is seriously dangerous to the freedom and psychologicial health of vulnerable people.

I understand that much about it. It's been something I've educated myself about for years now.
Went so far as to sign up for an ex gay session with a local church.
I wanted to do unbiased, confidential research.
But, they aren't having that.
Can't have any analytical types peep their doings.

If you weren't at a critical and vulnerable time in your life to choose, then that's even better.

But in the meantime, this is a group of people who make claims and provide services that are unregulated, and have done MUCH harm before.
You misread me, wasn't out of misunderstanding you.
But the other way around.
I'm always concerned about someone who might have been taken advantage of by these people.
You have to admit, I was entitled to think that.
With so little to go on.

The other gay supportive ex gay young person, I can predict...is in for a crushing disappointment.
I know him. He doesn't track right in his expectations.
If I was looking to figure YOU out, I also was hoping to have your back.

If you don't need it, great.
But there are others who do.
Desperately, I'm afraid.

And I don't have a lot of opportunity to rest.
I get worked up, because I have to.
But I know, the usual bloggers here understand ME.
And all things considered...that's pretty good.
posted by  Regan, at 1/16/2007 6:18 PM  

Well, Regan I support a person to either go to a gay affirming group or therapist or cult just as I support a person to go to a "reparative" (for lack of a better word) therapist, group or cult. And I support parents who want to raise their children with their values. It may not be what I like - but I support personal choices and freedoms. We all become adults one day and must break free of our parents stronghold and begin to live our own lives. (That is in the christian bible)

As for your friend, I wish him/her the best of luck. I know I have run into ALOT of controversy when meeting with some of these religious zealots. They do not allow personal choices. (Even God offers himself and does not impose himself on us)

I do know of a female therapist who works with women who is very kind and smart, (yes christian and conservative) but admits that the clients choice is above all else - theirs. In the past she was not as understanding. If the client wants to work on changing, she is there to help. If the client does not want to work on changing then they work on what the presenting issues are. I believe that she is sincere - but of course no one knows the heart as well as the sure observer - (reference to God)

I do not doubt that you are smart. But being smart does not mean we will come the same personal choices or conclusions about our own lives. Or how to respond to crisis in this world. And this world is indeed in need of help.

Again, good luck to your friend. And he/she too must make their way, just like you and I do.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/17/2007 1:01 PM  

FYI: I thought you'd want to know. It's just an example I hope to explain here.
Alan Chambers, who leads Exodus, posted an article on the Exodus website yesterday.
He vaguely recalls some incidents spread from countries like Sweden, Canada and England-to here in the US in Philadelphia.
As part of his urging his follower to make Congress not enact hate crimes laws.
He also gives the impression from his article that these incidents were the silencing and jailing (or threat of it) of Christians for speaking their religious beliefs.

We knew he'd do that.
But he left out some important facts. Or he lied outright.

Example:
In the case of Philadelphia, the religious group was without a permit to assemble the way they did in public.

In the case of the other countries:
The speaker didn't just mention what was in their Bibles.
Their speech went far and beyond strict Scripture.
But they were screeds that gay people were dangerous. Were diseased and menaced children.
This happened in countries where there are public health programs and legal adjudication is expensive.
Violence and assault against gay people IS expensive.
So these public figures were not muzzled because of their religious beliefs.
But their hate speech has consequences that is expensive and creates unnecessary difficulty.
In short, it's the religious people that cause more problems than the gay citizens.

That Chambers doesn't say that, just shows the obfuscation and lying he's capable of.
And he, nor any other anti gay person, will entertain the idea that THEY do cause more problems than they solve.
That, and taking privileges for themselves, and not wanting to share them, that are meant for everyone.
This is what I take the ex gay industry to task for.
They don't believe in a person choosing their own path or having equal rights and access.
Definitely not.

Again, causing more problems than they solve.
A person that makes claims of moral beliefs and standards should know better.
And TELL THE TRUTH.

Thanks for your wishes for my friend.
And good luck to you too.
posted by  Regan, at 1/17/2007 2:33 PM  

I will read your post later - having work issue. BTW, Alan Chambers is under the cone of deciept - I know that. He does not know that, yet.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/17/2007 6:04 PM  

Tell me about it!! The whole Hate Speech thing. All a pstor has to do after he stated his view that homosexuality is wrong is say"This does not mean that we should treat those who engage in that lifestyle with anything less than love, kindness and grace" That would protect anyone from breaking the hate speech law!!

Honestly, I got into a huge argument with my shrink over this - a session that I refused to pay for since she brought her own bias and political agenda into my private session. After awhile she conceded that I was right and that she had not reviewed the documentation and verified the stories and how they were being reported. And then I got a lecture on how I should get out there and speak at churches.

Well, she gets out there a little more than I do.

Many, many citizens are ill informed of exactly what the bill states. It talks about using inciteful language- such as you can be criminallly prosecuted for yelling fire in a crowded theatre (when there is no fire) and someone is injured because of said action.

Of course, we have the right of free speech but not when is causes injury to others.

I doubt that people like Alan Chambers who was never really out as a gay man and never really experienced the hateful actions of others, really truly understands what gay people go through on a daily basis. Hec, I can go out and by some people's standard appear lesbian (I suppose when wearing my leather jacket LOL) and be attacked or threatened for DOING NOTHING!!

I support free speech but not when it directly causes or incites an action of violence against innocent people.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/17/2007 7:21 PM  

In regards to AC, he is probably a nice guy and sincere but very niave (sp?). I feel sorry for him because he makes statments that sound sooooo canned and he is probably vulnerable to the machine because of his income. I'm not sure but he does not seem to have a grasp on what it means to be gay and live as a gay person. He may know what it is like to have homosexual feelings and thoughts but not the life. And many of those who come into his sphere of knowledge are coming with the same guilt filled back ground and christian culture for their upbringing. Thus his experience of gay (thought, philosphy, life, actions, etc...) is very much skewed.

He's probably a nice guy but with little experience of the hatred out there and no understanding of the fight for one's own life.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/17/2007 7:43 PM  

Afterthought, in comparison, to hear some of these people like AC speaking is sort of like listening to the parent who keeps telling their child that Switzerland was neutral.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/17/2007 7:46 PM  

AND.... if he wants to help homosexuals "be free" then that should be his focus not politics. this is not a christian country - it is a country of free choice to choose your religion. Gays are not breaking down the family ( 51% of women are in single households without a spouse) Please see divorce and the christian answer - NONE!!!
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/17/2007 7:53 PM  

This is why the analysis of ex gays and their activity is so important.
Alan Chambers, Stephen Bennett...DL Foster-some or most have become commercial in their outreach to others. They want access to government influence.
Stephen Bennett and DL Foster are ministers.

This is a position of influence, reaching masses of people.
When they were younger men, they were promiscuous, if not outright prostitutes.
They took drugs or dealt them.
Their dire warnings about being gay, is that this descent into unprotected sex, drugs or other addictions, depression and lack of monogamous relationships is ALL attributable to homosexuality and inevitable if you are gay.

Forget about the fact that this happens to heterosexuals.

But, to them...gay sex IS the addiction, so therefore deviant and impossible to reconcile with anything good.
Or with a life in Christ.

It's all or nothing.

Alan Chambers...
I can't qualify if he's a nice guy or not.
However, his behavior and how certain restrictions, punishments and isolation is exacted on GAY YOUTH, keeps me from believing that.
I asked him outright, had he had unconditional acceptance of his homosexuality as a youth. And his other positive attributes been supported and encouraged...what would have happened then?

Could his life of painful revelation and rudderless descent even happened?
So how about we make it policy that gay kids be accepted?
Because accepted gay youth fare MUCH better in life and can be very happy, when given the chance to.

He never even commented on the statement.
I'm a results focused person.
We KNOW...it's NOT theory, what can happen when gay youth are given a chance to thrive without threat or coercion.

But in AC's world, homosexuality and success AS a gay person is still a theory.
And again, Biblical proscriptions are more strict and varied for straight people that gets ignored all the time.
Let alone it being a part of PUBLIC policy.

And THAT'S the shit that most pisses me off.

Alan Chambers treats the general public as if they shouldn't question HIM.
And even if you do...he bails on answering.

But all the while, people in the ex gay industry love to say "question homosexuality".
I already asked homosexuals what was up. And what gay people have told me, as well as what I have experience, all makes more sense.

After a while, Chambers will be irrelevant. He can't and doesn't make sense.
This is why this industry wants the government involved. To hedge their influence.

I don't question homosexuality at all anymore.
But I DO question Randy Thomas and AC and all the rest.
And boy....do they hate to answer except from their careful, safe and easy script that will never cover my questions.

When lives and psychological health are on the line...I don't think it's too much to ask that they DAMN WELL better know what the hell they are doing.
Since they put themselves up as more expert than anyone else, precisely because of being gay.

But there is BEING gay, and NEVER falling into the traps that so many ex gays fall into because THEY ARE TAUGHT that's what being gay is...and here they are teaching the same thing to other gay kids.

But the REAL experts, are the gay people who overcome prejudice, fear, isolation and come through as well adjusted and happy.
THESE are the gay people who should have the influence.
Chambers exacerbates stereotype and prejudice, rather than eliminates it.

His activity is as bad as if I were going around as black woman and saying 'unhunh...young black males are VERY dangerous people. Don't encounter them on the street because they are ALL criminals and the police are right to stop and question each one. And then, if there is a violent encounter, and the black boy ends up dead, then we've done a good thing. And other young black men will learn from that example that walking around free, even after dark...is no way for a black young man to live."

See what I mean?
Although he's had the experience of being gay, he didn't have the RIGHT experience.
And he's selling out OTHER gay young people in the worst way.
And doing it, at the expense of justice and truth.

Putting a nice face and demeanor on it, makes it all the more horrible.
posted by  Regan, at 1/18/2007 11:53 AM  

So right, Regan. All the people that Exodus and their ilk hold up as success models are people who were never happy to begin with, gay or not. Guys who were prostitutes, drug addicts, sex addicts. These are not indicative of the gay male population. My friends and I stayed away from such people. Not judgemental, mind you, just because we didn't want to get mixed up in it. The Christian right holds these folks up as the norm. Ladies and Gentlemen, I am the norm. I'm in a nine year relationship and raising three kids, totally monogamous; never a drug addict, never a prostitute. My friend Tom is the norm; single man, looking for Mr. Right; occasional one night stand, but all in all comfortable in his skin. My uncle is the norm; 35 years with the same man. My friend John is the norm. Broke up with his boyfriend 8 months ago. Not interested in another relationship.

People who are so down on the gay community need to see that we are all normal. As normal as our heterosexual counterparts. I tell straight people all the time; the only thing that makes me different from you is what we do in the bedroom, and that is none of your business.

Regan, you really should start your own blog. I know you've been told this before. But you have so much to say and such a great way of saying it. Take care.
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/18/2007 5:24 PM  

You got three kids, Jekyllhyde?
Wow...you're braver than I am.
Although I love me some kids...it's a scary world to raise them in.
More power to you!

I am flattered that you think I should have a blog of my own.
I'll stick to writing stage plays.
The one I'm struggling to edit now, is set to have a national radio performance, possibly next month.
I can let you and all our gang when it airs and how you can get it on broadband.

It's called "Shepard/Till-The American Verses."

The gadfly bit is lots more fun than running for office.
And cheaper too.

I think though, that somewhere along the way, I picked up a bunch of kids who have made me prouder than I can barely say.
Steve Mathias (who posted higher up on the thread) is one of those kids.
Or used to be...I've known him and his younger sister since they were in high school, and how they are well adjusted happy, young adults.
I wouldn't EVER lie to a youngster.
An adult has a great moral responsibility to tell the truth to the young.
I see this ex gay business as lies on top of lying on top of more lies.
Lots of kids see through bullshit pdq anyway.

You as a parent would appreciate how that is, JH.
And I know you wouldn't appreciate another adult lying to them.

I can understand a parent looking to understand their child's orientation, NOT changing it.

Children aren't meant to be THAT much like their folks, nor be so controlled by them that they can't recognize or know themselves when they need themselves the most.
posted by  Regan, at 1/18/2007 8:27 PM  

You know, some of us were blessed with great parents. Some kids have it rough - I just can't imagine living in a restictive home that would have disowned me for being gay. My parents were great in that regard. And yes, JH you are the norm. You have a normal life with kids, hopes, dreams, etc.... Why people want to ruin that - I just don't it.
posted by  Anonymous, at 1/18/2007 9:11 PM  

I know a LOT of gay parents. I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise in a more gay friendly city like Los Angeles.
But I think it's the diversity WITHIN this group that gives hope for the future.

Many of the couples are mixed color, or ethinically. They are that way different from the children they are raising.
I know one white gay man, HIV+ over 25 years(healthy and strong) raising a delighful little black girl.
She has two daddies now, but I lost my own father to cancer when I was 15, so having a poz parent isn't any worse than having a parent period.
Health can be a delicate issue, no matter your background.
Hence the urgency over health insurance and care in this country.

I find that the children in these families are not racist, sexist, averse to others with handicaps or chronic illness. They aren't so judgmental on those issues.
And those who espouse 'traditional values' are more often ALL those things.
But they complain about these other values as if it includes acceptance of drug use and promiscuity and abortion.
But you have to look at who is saying that.
Those who are proud of their 'traditional values' like to dream there was a time that never was.

Our lives are more confessional and out in the open, but people are basically more experienced and learn things more readily than they used to.
And treat other people accordingly.
A world with LESS racism, sexism, prejudice against the handicapped or with a chronic disorder is a good thing.
Those with traditional values are less likely to adopt (they have too many of their own children to do so).
I don't see James Dobson or any of those who support him with the children with the most needs in THEIR homes.
But they would keep these kids from the gay parents who DID take them in.

They wouldn't encourage a girl to learn how to fix cars or be a carpenter, or be a firefighter.
Or encourage a boy to be an artist.

Those with 'traditional values' don't really know what it means, and won't admit what it does mean.

Just looking at our President, what a horrible snob he is, and how his cabinet and committees were constructed with like minded people just shows how little he can relate to those not like him

His snobbery is destroying this country.
And I'm tired of the lies being told to our faces, as if we're all too stupid to challenge or question who our country is charged to.
posted by  Regan, at 1/19/2007 12:18 PM  

yes, I have three beautiful daughters. Two I raised since they were babies. The third came to us a year ago when she was 15. She's been the most difficult, but mostly because of the life she's had up until now. But I won't go into all that. The thing is that Scott and I are both her parents. It takes more than a bloodline to make a parent. And I have taught them all how to fix a car, basic plumbing and electrical work, and...well, anything that needs to be done. I think it is imperative for a woman to not be dependent upon a man. I think it is imperative for a woman to know at least half as much as the garage mechanic she takes her car to to be serviced. Dobson and his ilk would have women barefoot and pregnant and gay men under the closet. Yes, I can sew and I'm quite the cook. I can also take the engine of my old van apart and put it back together.

My parents raised us all without gender roles. My brother, who is straight, played with dolls just like I did. My sister, who is straight, enjoyed trucks and farming toys. My favorite toys were always anything I could find outside. An oak leaf could make an excellent bed for a pine cone person.

Over the past...well, since just before the 2004 election, I found myself extremely pissed off at the very notion of morals in this country. The "Moral Voters" in 2004 were so focused on gay marriage and abortion rights. I'm sick and tired of being the religious right's poster boy for immorality. So what if the person who shares my bed is another man. He's also the person who shares my life, but they cannot grasp that. They would prefer to see us confined to dark corners of sex clubs, so they can feel better about their own lives.

To me, immorality is children having to go bed hungry. To me, immorality is kids losing both of their parents to AIDS, because mom and dad didn't get the education they needed. TO me, immorality is a 15 year old getting shot dead in the street because the only way he thinks he can make a living is by selling drugs. I wonder how many of those "moral Voters" have ever taken the time to visit a homeless shelter, or a children's hospital on Christmas Eve. My partner and his band and I have a Christmas eve tradition. We go to the local Childrens ward of the hospital, where the band plays for the kids and I play Santa. I'm a fairly skinny santa, but they don't seem to notice. And they love the songs, and they sing along. And for a moment, they are just kids; not sick kids.

So I gotta ask myself. Exactly what is their definition of moral. Ordinarily, in such cases, I would offer to agree to disagree. But when people are dying because they can't open their fat wallets for anything other than trying to deny gay people rights and women rights and minorities rights. IT's just wrong. It's for this point that we need to stand. Some people do not agree with Waynes tactics, but it is usually persons who disagree with his stand. Others don't understand the way of the activist.

MLK didn't just stand for the rights of the Black man. He stood for the rights of all human beings, under the skin. Queer people included. Ghandi didn't just stand for the rights of the men of India. He stood for the rights of all human beings. I like to consider myself in that fold. Jesus didn't just stand for the rights of Jews or even the people who followed him. He was for every man, woman, and child. And whether you believe that he was the Messiah, or a madman, or just a preacher/teacher, his words are words to live by. "Love thy Neighbor" "Judge not, lest ye be Judged" "Let him among us who is without sin cast the first stone."

On a lighter note, best of luck on your plays, Regan. I am, myself, working on a novel. It's semi-autobiographical. I'm calling it fiction. I've finished the rough draft and am now into the re-write, which I hate. If I ever end up at a book signing near you, please stop by. We could have coffee or something.

Sorry for the soap box, all.

Take care,
Darren
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/20/2007 12:08 AM  

dearest Darren...raising girls!
That's BEAUTIFUL, man!

I admire you for that. Very much.
I may not be a mom...but I guess it pleases me that people who are parents, trust me with their children.
And you are absolutely right, the plight of children...even here...is a shame on our country.
There is a line, we can teach children about self discipline, honesty and kindness. THESE are moral values that can change the world.

But you and I are astonished at how immature and dishonest adults are.
Including those in leadership of our country or some other powerful position of influence.

I resent their CLAIMS of truth and some kind of special intimacy and knowlege of GAY lives they have NO privy to.
Let along the bald faced lies told to benefit themselves and destroy lives they would turn their faces from.
Such as yours.
A concerned and compassionate father.
ALL fathers who are this way should be lauded...gay or not.

I lost my father as a teen, and never got another one.
I consider your girls EXTREMELY lucky to have one.
Blessed to have two.
I'd agree that TWO competent parents is the ideal.
Gay or not, is what doesn't really matter.

I love your soap box. You are speaking from a heart that want's ALL children protected and loved.
You're not cafeteria picking that.

Those that think that the man/woman couple is ideal.

Are also training the public to only look to have the ideal child.
There is no 'ideal' anything.
And there certainly cannot be legislation ONLY for the ideal.
This isn't a standard set for straight people, and the current standards CAN be met by gay folks.

And you can bet I'm sick and tired of people acting like that's not what's really up.

I can look back on my life and think, yes...I see why daughters were entrusted to me.

I've done non traditional things. My father also didn't see gender when he was training me as an athlete. Or how to use his power tools.
I was able to assist my carpenter ex husband on some of his jobs.
There were three generations of carpenters in my family.

And build sets when I worked in theater groups.

Each one to what they do best.
And 'tradition' was never a real or natural institution when it comes to gender.
And the usual suspects obviously prefer conformity, rather than individuality. Submission over self actualization.
And most of all...they can't keep up with well informed and literate masses.
They ARE dinosaurs that don't know that their 'traditions' are history that's become redundant, if not irrelevant.

Our greatest role is to know ourselves best, and present our best selves to the world.
Each of us has that in them.
The prejudiced don't want to look for that, nor do they ask questions.
As I said, I love young people, and wouldn't lie.

People like James Dobson lie with ease about people he doesn't know at all, who are the least understood, and those he'd prefer to be isolated and NEVER to realize their best selves.
If they did, his dreams and lies would and hopefully will...be the end of his influence.

His TIME magazine kerfuffle is one example.

As a writer to another...there is a certain spirit that lives in us.
It's like dancing elves and fairies. Those little schemers and tattletales and jabberjaws that won't leave you alone until you've put their imagery to paper.
Whatever you do...do NOT tell them to quiet down.
You need them.
Well...tell them to keep it at a whisper when you get up in the morning.
At least until you've had your coffee!

Love,
Regan
:oP
posted by  Regan, at 1/20/2007 12:10 PM  

LOL, I know. I've never known a writer that wasn't a schitzophrenic at heart. "I hear Voices."

"Tell them to shut up."

"I can't, their telling me a really good story."

There's a fine line between creativity and lunacy.
posted by  jekelhyde, at 1/20/2007 12:35 PM  

No seriously. You know what helped me realize why exactly what you said is true?
The Ray Bradbury novel "Farenheit 451" which envisions just that.
Books are a sign of chaos,writers and writing a ban inflence, so therefore a bane to sanity, so books were burned and reading a crime.

And also on how those who do not or haven't written themselves, can sometimes either deliberatly or not, discourage you from it.
My marriage in part was destroyed around the time I started writing.
My husband does not, nor never has read for pleasure.
He was going to night school at city college and had to read several novels and write reports on them.
But he does not do it for himself nor knows much about other writers or books.
And whatever small successes I had along the way, his responses were at first perplexing, if not outright infuriating.
And several times, I very nearly threw my work down the garbage chute to avoid such horrible conflicts.
Even his parents said something cruel to me about writing...before they ever read a word.
Now they regret it...
But a lot of irreparable damage was done.
And it's not like I made anyone sacrifice anything in the meantime.
No monetary sacrifice, no neglect of the house or my husband or other support he needed. No need to be hostile at all.
The sacrifice was all mine. I've lost sleep. I have osteoarthritis damaged hands. Very premature. But I sometimes had to get through the hours of typing with non narcotic pain killers and bandaged hands.
And even after my first articles were published and my first play was produced and performed in Philadelphia...I still was treated badly within the family for it.
You don't expect it from them, and it's wrong, but it can happen and it has much potential for tragedy.

Now I know. Now...I know.
And I have learned some mental and emotional exercises to overcome such people.
My social circle now consists mostly of writers and actors and other artists.
It has to. To recover, to commiserate...to realize myself and my potential...and that of others.
We each bring each other along in that way that those in your same boat would understand.
As you might have noticed, I am sometimes fiercely passionate and have tendency to fire and storm.
That is the stuff of tale tellers and griots, dancers and painters.
So welcome brother...in your own efforts, to the mill grinders at the wheel of Imagination!
posted by  Regan, at 1/21/2007 11:33 AM  

Well, the funny thing is, I've always believed that writers keep themselves sane by writing. I wonder, if Stephen King didn't have such an outlet for his imagination, would he be in a rubber room sucking his thumb?

I was raised in a hippie communal house on the Eastern Shore. My life was far from normal. Now, inside the house and on the grounds things were fine. The kids I grew up with were exactly like me. But out in the world, things were downright scarey. And when I got older and had to add being gay to my list of things lacking of normalcy I don't know what I would do, if I couldn't put it to paper. In my fiction, I didn't have to be "Darren the Homo hippie." I could be "Darren the rock Star", or "Darren the world Traveler."

It wasn't until I got older that I began to appreciate my life as it was; and is. When I got into college, kids who didn't care for my sexuality really latched on to the whole hippie thing and for the first time in my life, I had a strange surge in popularity. So from there, I was able to get back to my roots and actually become "Darren the homo hippie" and like it.

Anne Rice once said that she has an on-going narrative in her head and her greatest fear is that one day the story will end.

So, keep your story going and so will I. I must stay on this side of sanity.
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