Friday, March 23, 2007
March 22, 2007
International Healing Foundation
Tel. (301) 805-6111
Greetings,
I would like to address the questions that some friends have expressed in regard to some of the media appearances I've done recently, including Jimmy Kimmel Live, Paula Zahn Now, The Montel Show, and this week's Jon Stewart's The Daily Show on Comedy Central.
I've chosen to do interviews on shows such as these in an effort to reach people who would normally never hear our message. Some of these shows have mocked me and this work. Most times though, the interviews on these and other shows have turned out in our favor. I have had wonderful opportunities to get the truth out clearly and have seen many people respond because of these interviews, seeking out healing and change through various PATH (Positive Alternatives To Homosexuality) organizations.
This week's interview on The Daily Show was difficult. It took place in my home and office, and was the most degrading experience I've had in the media. I unknowingly allowed myself to be manipulated and coerced by the producer and the host. I take full responsibility for this mistake. I have learned since my interview with The Daily Show that this program treats most of the experts they interview the same way they treated me: taking bits and pieces of the interview, re-edit it out of order, and make the interviewee appear foolish.
Happily, regular Daily Show viewers-which I am not-are in on the gag and know that this is the way the show generates laughs. I have learned well from this experience to better research future interview opportunities and to be more discerning about the offers that I accept, and what therapeutic approaches I demonstrate on the air. I sincerely apologize if my decision to be on this and other interview programs has caused you any hurt or harm. Please forgive me.
Over the past seventeen years with the International Healing Foundation, I have been able to assist hundreds of men and women with unwanted same-sex attraction (SSA) realize their dreams of a heterosexual life. With all my heart, I want to help the general public understand that no one is born with same-sex attractions (SSA), and that change is possible.
There are still so many people caught in the lies of the "gay myth." It grieves God's heart to see His children in such situations. It hurts me too, having lived a "gay life," and knowing the wonderful possibility of healing that truly exists, and the freedom that may be experienced when someone comes out straight. We must get our message out as often as possible. Lives are stake. Lives can be changed forever.
Changing our cultural understanding about SSA and the possibility of change takes a lot of time, and a lot of skill in reaching out to major media outlets, with a well-crafted message. I am not a public relations expert and very much need the help of one. I have had to handle the media on my own. I realize now that this needs to be changed.
If you can contribute financial resources toward funding public relations and media strategizing, so we can launch a positive campaign to promote the truth about SSA and the possibility of change, please contact me. I/we need and appreciate your help in this urgent matter. I know that we can impact our culture in a positive way. However, we simply need the training and funding to accomplish this life-saving goal.
I am in this for life. Twenty years ago God called me to do this work, and I have been faithful. I will not cease. I will not sit down. I will continue to work for the freedom of all men and women who experience same-sex attractions and their loving families.
Thank you for your understanding, your prayers, and your support.
Many blessings,
Richard
Richard Cohen, M.A.
Director
International Healing Foundation
P.O. Box 901
Bowie, MD 20718
Tel (301) 805-6111
Fax (301) 805-5155
www.ComingOutStraight.com
www.GayChildrenStraightParents.com
88 Comments:
I was looking at the Quackwatch site again today and re-read "Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science" at http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/signs.html
Number 1 is "The discoverer pitches the claim directly to the media".
See how many of the seven in total you think can apply to Mr. Cohen and those like him.
posted by , at
3/23/2007 2:38 PM
I'm sorry, but how stupid do you have to be not to at least watch one episode of the Daily Show before you agree to appear on it touting some absurd message like the one "Dr." Cohen is advocating (that was the funniest part).
This does not require a PR expert. It just requires a television and modicum of common sense. Here's some PR advice, Richard: STAY OFF TV!!!! You are a quack, and if you weren't harming so many people you'd be nothing but fodder for a good laugh.
I for one hope that you'll continue chasing the cameras. If that episode served to dissuade even one person to stay away from you, then it was an enormous success! You do more to warn people about the idiocy (and danger) posed by the ex-gay myth than any of us could ever do on our own. Thank you for your support!
posted by , at
3/23/2007 3:42 PM
Actually, I would find the whole ex-gay movement to be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that it is hurting so many people.
posted by , at
3/23/2007 5:11 PM
It has hurt many people and some of the so called "ministries" are a joke. There is a difference between a ministry and therapy. Ministry has been used to shame and con people for as long as it has existed whether it is used to "exorcise" homosexuality or demons or whatever. Homosexuals are not demon possessed just people who have a different perspective on sexuality than heterosexuals.
posted by , at
3/23/2007 5:18 PM
Anonymous at 5:06 p.m., who are "those who are ex-gay"? Do you mean people who have gone from sexually active to celibate but with desire unchanged, or do you mean people whose sexual desire has been changed by some clinical methodology? Currently I believe in the existence of the former but not of the latter.
posted by , at
3/23/2007 6:06 PM
Wayne-
When I started reading this, I thought it was your words and that you were embarrassed. I really liked the Daily Show segment and thought it showed you in a very respectable light. When I finally figured out I was reading Richard Cohen's words I was relieved. So it's interesting that he doesn't think the OTHER media appearances weren't equally embarrasing. Oh my.
posted by RandyH, at
3/23/2007 7:30 PM
I'm sure Cohen's favorite part of these 'therapies' is when he gets to hold the guy in his lap and pretend he's daddy.
Gary (NJ)
posted by , at
3/24/2007 10:20 AM
This is more of what I keep talking about. Cohen has NO credentials, he's got a background with a group that was NOTORIOUSLY sexually abusive to it's members.
I'm sure he doesn't reveal EVERYTHING about his life to his clients and likely invokes confidential privilege at every chance if challenged.
His quote "I assisted hundreds in realizing their dream of becoming heterosexual."
'Assisted'?
"Their dream?'
I think it's exceptionally pathetic now that these assertive media grubbing ex gays will find themselves not liking the image they conveyed in forums where they are not in control of what's happening.
This is why so many of them enter ministries. That why they ARE the center of attention and are unlikely to be challenged or have much of their private lives intruded on.
There is something of a messianic quality to being called a 'healer' or somone that's 'freed' a gay person from their burdens.
The pleather is SO insecure among the genuine cowhides that constant validation looms so large in their lives.
It's like 'PLEASE tell me I'm genuine cowhide, no I am, really...see see...I'm genuine, I'm genuine...because I TOLD you!'
The thing is, ex gays know their own lines, prefer their own stages and lights and scenery.
So, when it's all said and done, it's an act.
It's very much like seeing a very fragile facade trying to hold together under serious public scrutiny.
If they can crack at any minute, that's not so good for them is it?
There isn't enough PR management in the world that will fix Cohen's act.
So called heterosexuals like him, aren't glamorous or exciting. He and his wife are boring and mundane, but NOT FOR his tv appearances, what's he go to do all day?
Play huggy cuddle poo with clients and whack pillows?
He's got a suburban existence and fortunately good looking children.
But if this is the "dream" his clients are looking for, OMG...that's kind of sad to me.
His big eared goofiness puts him squarely in nerdsville.
Don't get me wrong, I like nerds.
But he's a geekster trying to make his life look cool enough so that a gay man or woman will pay serious dough(nice house Cohen!) to be like THAT?!
In fact...don't an awful lot of these ex gay frontmen/women seem like serious bowls of oatmeal to you too?
I think in some ways being celibate, or chasing the 'heterosexual Cleaver ideal', turns you into gray skies and flat tires.
If they left out talking about EVER being gay...I'm pretty sure they couldn't generate anymore excitement than talking about dust bunnies under the couch would.
So I'm guessing that their former gay life is what's passing for their edge.
And that is really, really...REALLY...pathetic.
Can I get a witness?
posted by Regan, at
3/24/2007 1:51 PM
They say, if you're going to tell a lie, it's as well to tell a big one.
Mr. Cohen demonstrates this effectively at the top of his gaychildrenstraightparents page. He writes there:
"There is no scientific data to substantiate a genetic or biologic basis for same-sex attraction(SSA). On the contrary, eighty years of scientific research conclusively indicates that SSA is the result of temperament, familial, and enviroment conditions".
This is, quite simply, untrue. If Mr Cohen is unaware of its untruth, then how serious a student of sexuality has he been? If he is aware of its untruth, then what is he?
posted by , at
3/24/2007 5:10 PM
Anonymous, I don't really understand your argument.
Cohen takes money from people on the premise of changing their sexual desire, and he promotes that fake service heavily in the media as much as he can. Should his sham not be exposed as fully as possible, in order to protect people from him, and help them save their money and their hopes?
Are you saying that charlatans in general should NOT be exposed? For my part, I disagree. I think, for example, that www.quackwatch.com does a great job.
I would be interested, also, in any official statements you could point me to from other, arguably more "mainstream" ex-gay bodies, denouncing and repudiating Cohen. I don't think I've seen any. Is there, for example, any such denunciation on the NARTH website?
posted by , at
3/24/2007 7:29 PM
Under the third 'bullet point' on Cohan's gaychildrenstraightparents homepage we read:
"With strong motivation, proper support, effective counsel, and the love of God, people can and do change--not only behavior, but the very essence of their gender identity and sexual orientation".
It struck me as interesting that love of God is a prerequisite for change of sexual desire. I gather that Mr Cohen's clinical methods don't work for atheists then?
Currently I'm on a short course of antibiotics because of a dental abscess. I am not, as it happens, an athiest. But I think the antibiotics would work just as well if I was.
What is one to make of a clinical methodology that only works if you love God? And to which God is Mr. Cohen referring?
posted by , at
3/25/2007 10:26 AM
There is a difference between ministry and therapy.
Cohen is not of the mainstream raparative therapists.
posted by , at
3/25/2007 12:17 PM
1) "it is interesting to note that not one person has mentioned - or if they have it has been removed - that Cohen is not accepted by the ex gay groups on the majority."
2) "Cohen is not of the mainstream raparative therapists."
These are false statements. Fact: Cohen has been used by NARTH as a trainer at their national conference. Indeed, this is where I met him in DC several years ago. NARTH allowed Cohen to lead seminars and hawk his book. If NARTH is not mainstream reparative therapy, than wht is?
Furthermore, Cohen was/is the president of PFOX, which is a mainstream ex-gay group that was started with the help of the Family Research Council. To claim that Cohen is rejected by these groups is not true.
Finally, Exodus did not reject Cohen - but he rejected them a long time ago. He did so after an Exodusminister made a pass at him and then his Exodus ministry leader came out of the closet. This information is in Cohen's book. Try reading it before making an ass of yourself on my site.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
3/25/2007 1:40 PM
Richard Cohen cannot be helped by a "PR Guru" for one very simple reason: whenever he opens his mouth, he comes off as a crackpot, as a complete yokel. His eyes are a clear giveaway and shout, "I'm a deluded crazy person" while his verbal invective reveal him as emotionally unstable and, indeed, most unsuitable as an advocate for anything.
Even when discussing the most serious subjects, his face holds that bizarre, inappropriate smile; an obvious cover for an inner soul that is disquieted and in complete disarray. And, of course, he was "called by God" to do "this work". Who knew that the Good Lord was such a fan of the Daily Show and Paula Zahn?
This person is certainly anything but the well-adjusted heterosexual man that he claims to be. I confess to feeling sorry for this man; it is sad that he lacks the moral and spiritual courage to live an authentic, honest life as the human being that he really is. Richard, it's time to remove the mask.
posted by , at
3/25/2007 6:01 PM
Wayne Besen is doing a great job exposing this idiot. But how can I apply this to the guy at my former church last name, "Gamey," pronounced"Gay-Me" who's mission in life is to turn Gay "Christians" straight??
When I think about it, I think, Oh, MY God, I almost enlisted in his program!! How to stop others from walking into his office?? I know that my EX-Lover, JP, who is struggling with his sexuality knows Mr. Gamie, and what he does, after I showed him the "Daily Show" clip he laughed and said he would never go through something like that!! then , yes, we made made passionate love when he realized he was gay and didn't need to change. So, now, I've got my boyfriend back, thanx Wayne and Jon Stewart!!!
posted by Steven Weday, at
3/25/2007 11:44 PM
Wayne Besen is doing a great job exposing this idiot. But how can I apply this to the guy at my former church last name, "Gamey," pronounced"Gay-Me" who's mission in life is to turn Gay "Christians" straight??
When I think about it, I think, Oh, MY God, I almost enlisted in his program!! How to stop others from walking into his office?? I know that my EX-Lover, JP, who is struggling with his sexuality knows Mr. "Gamey," and what he does, after I showed him the "Daily Show" clip he laughed and said he would never go through something like that!! then , yes, we made mad passionate love when he realized he was gay and didn't need to change. So, now, I've got my boyfriend back, thanx Wayne and Jon Stewart!!!
posted by Steven Weday, at
3/25/2007 11:48 PM
So Mr. Cohen actually believes that nobody is born with same sex attraction. I have news for him. Since I was 7 years old, I knew instinctively that I was attracted to males. I came from a loving family, received love and affection from both my parents, neither of whom was more dominant than the other. I did not play with dolls or exhibit feminine behavior, I played a lot of sports growing up, you name it, but was just not attracted to females sexually. I was fortunate enough to have had two loving parents who accepted me for who I was, not what I should be. So Mr. Cohen, if you're reading any of this, your argument doesn't hold water. Give us proof that you can convert a heterosexual man to homosexuality then perhaps your argument might be believable. Until then, yours and all the other quack organizations will never convince me otherwise.
Robert, NYC.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 11:07 AM
Alan Chambers, Cohen...I've mentioned it often in the ethnic context. But it still applies when talking about ex gays.
I've sometimes had black acquaintances or friends, who were enamored of white people and their lives. They started to identify so strongly with white people (I mean even the British), that their speech took on strange affect. Like a British accent for example.
And just as often they'd reject dating anyone black or being a part of black culture.
To witness it was painful. It's hard enough to reject your black features, but there's also something even more alarm raising when you see black people as weak, as having no history or culture to be proud of, or you support the standards of exclusion set by your oppressors. And just as enthusiastically criticize those of a background you no longer claim.
Yet, profit from with that rejection and criticism.
Chambers and Cohen remind me of that. This need to be heterosexual SO badly, they'll convince themselves that's what they REALLY are.
The only truth they have is that they know what they DON'T want to be, but they still are people that DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.
And as they maneuver themselves around the great straight way, straight people don't know who they are either.
Their act is unconvincing to both sides.
And eventually ex gays become a caricature of what they think straight life is...and eventually they become theater.
A trained monkey that performs on cue for all the straight people and giving them what they want to hear and see.
But the fact remains, ex gays are NOT themselves and they ARE inauthentic and really need to quit bitching about how much flak they take from gay people.
It's a real candy assed piece of work, that's selling gay people down the river...that expects a warm welcome from them wherever they go.
posted by Regan, at
3/26/2007 12:48 PM
To anon. above who's quibbling about whether other 'ex-gay' groups 'approve' of Cohen or not: who gives a Fuck?! They're ALL QUACKS ripping people off financially and doing serious psychological damage in the process. It's like arguing whether Moe and Larry approve of Curly or not.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 1:54 PM
Regan: Right on. I agree, this ex-gay nonsense is just like the scenario that you illustrated. It is probably not predominantly about "morality" but simply about wanting to be a part of the majority.
Regarding Cohen, some anonymous people on this board suggest that he isn't a part of the ex-gay movement whatsoever, that he was only "once" on the board of Narth, and so forth. What a load of baloney! Fundamentalists employ this trick ALL the time. When one of their own shows him/her-self up for what they really are, the chorus of denial begins: "Well, S/HE isn't a REAL Christian, S/HE isn't a PART of US..."
Wake up and smell the coffee! Cohen revealed the ex-gay movement to be precisely what it is; silly, foolish and filled with people who lack the moral courage to live according to their own authentic inner voice. Now that he has shamed you, he isn't "a part of you" and "we never knew him". Yeah, right.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 2:48 PM
I have to agree with this last post.
It's of NO MATTER who approves of who.
Who got knocked off whose board or who has fallen out of favor with the prominent group.
The fact remains that all of these people, ALL of them are in no place to make dianosis or treat or counsel anyone gay on how to live straight.
Period.
Their quack science, quack credentials and bogus statistics are dangerous and to the casual observer have very little variance or distinction, especially in how they diagnose homosexuality.
NOBODY knows the causes of homosexuality.
Cohen, if he wasn't making up his own therapies and techniques as he went along, wouldn't need a PR firm for anything.
He's not subject to the APA and other peer bodies.
THEY don't need such help.
He's a trained monkey, who dropped his little cymbals.
posted by Regan, at
3/26/2007 2:48 PM
Anonymous, going to a counselor to "fit into your beliefs" is the work of a crazy person. I believe that psychologists call it being "maladaptive". A sane, mentally sound person accepts themselves as they are (identity wise), not as they wish they were. Using your theory, a self-hating black person who "believes" that whites are superior would be correct in going to a counselor to make themselves act "more white", a scenario that Regan expertly expounded on in her previous posts. And you think this is a good thing? Anonymous, please keep posting here so that we may continue to be entertained and educated by your obvious folly.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 3:09 PM
Why is it that Randall Terry reminds me so much of Richard Cohen, and vice versa? Twin sons of different mothers?
Anyone else noticed? Both charlatans!
-SharonB
posted by , at
3/26/2007 3:47 PM
No, a sound person realizes that the way they feel does not always fit in with the way they believe and they want an opportunity to discover if they will change their beliefs or try to change their attitudes/perspectives.
It is the same as if a person went to a gay affirming therapist.
You just believe that all gay people are immutable. That is fine for you. That makes sense to you.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 4:31 PM
And you can't explain away the people that do get out in the public and say they have changed. They are married, succesful and have children. Does not sound gay to me. That people insist that these people are still gay is wierd, to me.
Yes, there are people like Cohen who are not to be trusted but I remember a gay affirming therapist who ran off with one of her clients (another woman) and left her "wife" of 20 years behind. That is also a person who should not be trusted.
There is deciet and shame everywhere. But to hold out one or a few people as examples of a complete set or group of others is not reasonable.
And it does sound strange to me that a person would ask another person to leave behind their vision/perspective of God for sexual pleasure. God is above all things - sex, food, money etc... A strong belief that God is their answer (as they see God) should be left to that individual not a group or any one else.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 4:58 PM
Anonymous, what if a self-hating black person read the part in Genesis where it says that black people are the evil descendants of Haam, and, interpreting that nonsense literally, thought that God wanted them to act and behave "white"? Would that person be correct in going to a counselor to be "more white" since he believed it to be God's will, or would you admit that such a thing would be utterly wrong? And a quick second question: Are you personally tempted to "leave God behind" for what you see as "the sexual pleasure" of being gay? Please advise.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 5:10 PM
As usual, people like anon. focus immediately and almost solely on 'sexual pleasure'. Being gay is also about who we fall in love with and want to share our lives with. What kind of a God would create gay people (yes Virginia, it's nature, not nurture) and then demand that they live a life of emotional and sexual solitary confinement? By the way, homosexual activity is quite prevalent in the animal kingdom, including same-gendered emotional attachments, so the argument that it's unnatural or a choice is completely bogus. (Not that we have to depend on the rest of the animal kingdom to determine that fact.)
Gary (NJ)
posted by , at
3/26/2007 6:25 PM
To Anon...Chris gets it, and you don't Anon.
We've got history on our side that's shown many other people's identities being portrayed as bad or as an excuse to perpetuate slavery, Jim Crow and misogynation.
Guess which passages of the Bible got quoted all the time to make women AND blacks to believe their place was where the Bible told them to be, same as the passages from Scripture used to tell gay people THEY aren't welcome as equals either.
This compassionate and equal treatment is conditional on being straight,not being ones self.
This isn't about gay people or their worried parents having the choice at ALL.
Except they know and have been told WAY before they go to any ex gay counseling that they don't want to be gay.
They aren't taught how to reconcile their identity with serving God...which still has nothing to do exclusively with being Christian.
The ex gay philosophy is more about accepting that you're supposed to hate it, than not accepting that you don't.
The bigger point is, identity is powerful. You seem to take ex gays and their outreach as simple persuasion, but it's not.
It's an EXTENSION of traditional and unnecessary coercion. They may go about the business of persuading change differently, but to tell ANYONE they are illegitimate and will suffer because they are gay, is a very BRUTAL thing to do in the first place.
So no matter how nicely and with a smile ex gays wield their wares...the identity of a gay person is way to deep and symbiotic of who they are, it's not worth what's done to them to change it.
It's not about what I BELIEVE, or my opinion.
But what the real motive is beneath the Pepsodent smiles of this industries most prominent spokespersons. The real reason is cruel, even if their methods look benign.
posted by Regan, at
3/26/2007 6:26 PM
First of all black people cannot even pretend to be white - they are dark skinned. BTW, I have been called black by some when I am white. Go figure.
Second of all, if a person chooses - did you read that CHOOSES - to behave in a sexual manner say as a rapist then they are a rapist. If they choose not to behave as a rapist and they think about it - are they a rapist??
Can a rapist or a person who thinks about raping find some change and satisfaction from therapy that helps them deal with those feelings and never act on those feelings?? I think so.
Third, if a person who has gay feelings identifies as being a heterosexual person and does not act on their gay feelings - are they gay? Well - I guess that is for the individual to decide.
Does one sexual feeling have more genetic weight than another sexual feeling?? I don't know.
Can people profit emotionally from going to therapy and discussing their sexuality - I think so.
Gays can go to a gay affirming therapist or not. As well as a religious person who feels homosexuality is not what God wants can go to a counselor that will help them as they too so determine - for themselves.
Can a gay man whose parents gave him tapes to listen to as a young man give up the displaced anger for his parents and let others live their own lives (the way his parents should have done from the get go) and finally just accept that some people like being gay, others struggle with , and some change. I don't know.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 6:28 PM
Regan,
You believe in a different God than others. In a way, we all do. Can you accept that. I do. You will never understand that not everyone bows to the same God.
You pray differently. So be it. I get that. I accept that.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 6:31 PM
Again, if you can't get that rape isn't about one's orientation, than you can't argue moral equivalence whatsoever!
I shouldn't have to tell you, but the fact that you brought it up means that you are ill quipped for this discussion.
I also shouldn't have to tell you that many who are speaking out that changing to straight is THE way to live, are just as busy telling the world how evil, disease ridden, burdensome, untrustworthy (especially around children) and how dangerous to marriage gay people are.
So if you expect that their outreach begins and ends with dealing with the gay individual, you are seriously have no clue with which to have this discussion.
How ridiculous you'd accuse me of not respecting who doesn't believe as I do, or fit into what I want...when a WHOLE goddamn INDUSTRY is formed around forcing gay people into ex gay counseling.
It's THIS group who has no respect for what a person is and their individual identity, needs and goals!
What flavor is YOUR Kool-Aid, Anon?
The more an ex gay talks, the more accusatory they get that their message (s'cuse me, DECISION)isn't respected or understood or accepted unconditionally.
No, it's not that at all, because such a decision isn't UNEXPECTED considering all the other things that occur.
What I don't respect is calling it something it isn't and making OTHER people treat gays and lesbians badly in the meantime.
Your decision isn't surprising.
I get that.
But I'll be honest... of the other ex gays I've spoken to and the ways in which they try to rationalize their decisions are any indication...what an unbelievably naive bunch to think that it's not doing a serious bunch of damage out there.
posted by Regan, at
3/26/2007 6:49 PM
Anonymous, someone or a group of people did you a tragic disservice when they taught you that God would reject you because of who you are inside. The idea of God that they taught you is just that ... THEIR idea. The people who wrote the Bible (all men by strange coincidence) wrote about THEIR ideas of God. You can free yourself from the prison of forcing yourself to accept their limited, small, human notions. Why not begin your own search for God? You may be surprised at what you find...or what you don't find.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 7:30 PM
Regan - the word is sexuality. Even bad forms of sexuality are sexuality.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 7:49 PM
Regan,
Again you have lumped people changing with people's politics. Granted many of those who change do the same thing but it isn't the case. Do you think a person can change and still be accepting and liberal of gays??
They can. Many don't but that does not mean that politics and religion are the same word.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 7:51 PM
To Chris,
No one taught me that God would disown me or reject me for anything I did. Where did you get that idea?? From someone else - of course.
Gay or straight or whatever. God does not reject us.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 8:24 PM
Chris - in addition - that is what I believe - that God does not reject us.
posted by , at
3/26/2007 8:29 PM
Anonymous, do you think that openly-gay people go to heaven?
posted by , at
3/26/2007 8:30 PM
Anonymous, I guess you don't see Chris or the others on this thread, just me.
Anonymouns, it's not ME lumping this issue into politics, it's ex gays like Cohen and Chambers and Randy Thomas...and their ministries have been under the umbrella of groups such as Focus on the Family.
So it is THEY who are conflating that their religion or belief about homosexuality, should influence how gays are treated.
To the tune, of exclusion from Constitutional and Bill of Rights protections.
So, YOU as an individual may not think that your decision is yours and a part of something you have for yourself alone.
I just told you, you are an extension of a long and clear agenda.
That if a gay person can and does change, they are not entitled to have the protections and freedoms that marriage or any other institutions have to offer.
YOU (and other ex gays) are the example they LOVE to hold up as someone who can do what THEY want, not always what YOU want.
And ex gays (like Cohen and Chambers) offer themselves up for public review and tell what examples they are regarding the ability to change.
What you keep accusing me of is that I want you to think as I do...that's not it at all, and for the last time, don't put words in my mouth.
What I'm saying is, you are of USE to the others who diminish gay people and their identity.
You are useful to those who insist that change is not only possible, but there is no other way.
You keep addressing only me, and I resent it now.
As if no one else here hasn't voiced a variation of the same points I make.
And then you can't even be accurate even after I articulate exactly what I mean and say.
What is it with you? No respect, after all for the gay folks here. And you say what you do to me because you think I'm judging YOU exclusively?
I'm not, I'm judging this industry and it's methodology and it's lame assed mission statement.
So, if you believe that you made your decision without coercion, well goody.
Others are in a huge majority who have not.
Get over yourself, it's not about YOU.
It's about, again, an extension of a tradition of treating gays and lesbians this way.
And it's NOT healthy, nor is it consistent.
posted by Regan, at
3/26/2007 8:35 PM
"And you can't explain away the people that do get out in the public and say they have changed. They are married, succesful and have children. Does not sound gay to me. That people insist that these people are still gay is wierd, to me."
Easy. I'm a cantaloupe. There I said it. Does that make it true?
Married, succesful, and have children is evidence of what exactly?
Go to a truck stop or a bathhouse, you'll find plenty of married, successful men who have children --- having sex with other lonely, closeted men. Big deal.
Getting married just shows you have the ability to make a legal agreement with someone of the opposite sex. Big deal, doesn't mean you're straight.
Having kids just means you've had straight sex, so have lots of gay people. Hell, these days you don't even have to have straight sex to have kids! Big deal. Doesn't mean you're straight.
And one final thing, there are married, successful, child-having gay couples all over the place. It really just depends on if the government legally recognizes the marriage.
The best "evidence" of conversion therapy simply states a handful of hand-picked "success stories" can tell an interviewer over the phone that they're not gay anymore. "No really, i'm totally not gay anymore. For real. Scout's honor."
How clever to treat something that cannot be measured as a "disorder". Makes finding a cure so much easier , you don't have to be burdened with tests, evidence, and results. Genius.
posted by Jason, at
3/26/2007 8:38 PM
"Black people cant pretend to be white"?! ever heard of Michael Jackson?
posted by , at
3/27/2007 9:52 AM
"I disagree that sexuality is immutable" You can also 'disagree' that the earth is round, but that doesnt change the established facts of science one iota! The entire ediface of psychology and psychiatry *disagrees* with you! Guess who wins?!
B. (immutably) Queer.
posted by , at
3/27/2007 10:08 AM
Regan wrote>>>: "And ex gays (like Cohen and Chambers) offer themselves up for public review and tell what examples they are regarding the ability to change."<<<
This is exactly the point, anonymous. You and others talk about the "hundreds" of gays that "have changed", but when we look at who's reached the top of the pyramid, we see nonsense like John Paulk and countless other failures.
It reminds me of when, many years ago, I spent time in the Pentecostal church. We always heard about these spectacular healings and grand miracles, dramatic movings of God, and demonic exorcisms, etc., Looking back, however, I admit that I never saw one in person! It always happened "somewhere else", but never in any church that I attended.
There is a suspicious, eerie similarity regarding these dubious "ex-gay" claims. You and others say that they are "everywhere" that there are "thousands" of them who have "walked away" from the "lifestyle". Funny, but on a daily basis, I see happy gay and lesbian people walking around, but these "ex-gays" are always somewhere else. Seems rather suspicious to me!
posted by , at
3/27/2007 11:39 AM
LOL, wait a second. Anonymous 3/26, How do you clasify rape as a sexuality?
I wasn't going to get into this discussion because the Quad Anonymi were onboard, but I cannot let this one go.
posted by jekelhyde, at
3/27/2007 1:40 PM
Rape is sexuality (maligned no doubt) but a sexuality and a disorder by the way because it does not involve consent. The rapist is aroused by the violence and power he/she exerts over the other person. (You might see played out in S&M circles) That is why a rapist has a rapist sexuality.
In no way did I equate raping with homosexuality. Homosexuality is between two consenting people.
The idea is that (looking back through history) you can change and mutate sexuality through changing your perspective on what it means. Spartans were largely involved in homosexual acts - big deal - were they all born that way?? I don't think so. It is true I think we can agree - that social influences have an effect on our sexuality. And it is true that homosexuality and heterosexuality occur - big deal.
BTW, in parts of ancient Greece if a man could successfully have sex with a woman (even against her will) she was considered then his wife. So yeah, back then raping was considered acceptable and a type of sexuality. And in early American History (that not of the native Americans) a man could legally rape his wife - a rule that was not changed until recently. And yes, some men in that sense were only aroused in such a way - I'd call that a sexuality of type. That view has changed significantly in today's world.
So depending on where you are in history and geography sexuality has it's own definition. And some people change their views to fit in with their religious beliefs. Others change their religious beliefs to fit in with their sexuality.
posted by , at
3/27/2007 2:00 PM
"I happen to disagree with the idea that Cohen is the norm or standard for ex gay therapy."
This point is not debatable nor something that one has the luxary or ability to "disagree" with. The fact is, NARTH used Cohen as a trainer AFTER he published his wacky book. This means that they support the methods in his book. As NARTH is the standard bearer of reparative therapy, it means that Cohen is a mainstream reparative therapist. Funny thing how logic works when it is applied.
Additionally, Cohen's work is all over the PFOX website. They STILL refer reporters to him. Again, this is an incontrovertible fact, not subject for debate or spin.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
3/27/2007 2:04 PM
No, rape is not a sexuality. IT's a criminal dysfunction. Rape doesn't always lead to erection or ejaculation. Consider the cops in NY who pentrated the jamaican immigrant in the police bathroom with a plunger. THis was an act of rape, but there was no sexual gratification for the officers. It was an act of domination and humiliation. As is all rape. I did expect you to say that you were not comparing rapists to homosexuals, I don't really care if you were. Rape is not a sexuality. It's criminality. It has nothing to do with attraction or sexual desire.
posted by jekelhyde, at
3/27/2007 2:53 PM
JH - comes down to an opinion doesn't it.
posted by , at
3/27/2007 3:26 PM
I remembering arguing with a black minister. He said there was no such thing as an ex black.
Boy, was he wrong. There are many examples of blacks light enough to pass, who did.
They rejected all their black identity. Left their darker skinned family members and proceeded to live as a white person with no physical or family or cultural ties to black people.
Now, in this day and age, that would be a strange thing to do, when racism isn't so acute.
Michael Jackson simple exploited his vitiligo (a disease I also have), and affected being white in his ENTIRE identity, and is only black enough because his MUSIC is of that genre and made him a very rich man.
But he's never married black, his children have disguised and dubious ethinic identity (so far they look white, hmmmm) and he lives in a economic and social strata where most of his life isn't with black people.
But during Jim Crow, a light skinned black CHOOSING to alter their cultural and social identity would be understandable given the freedom of access and job and Constitutional and social protections being white had to offer.
So I'm not saying your decision, nor theirs wasn't understandable.
However, homophobia drives ex gay ministry. Be fucking honest about that.
Homobigotry and prejudice maintains it and gives it it's power and influence, NOT Christian charity.
And furthermore, if a light skinned ex black, engaged in anti integration political activity, THAT would be unforgivable.
And those ex gays who aren't that active in the strongest political way, ARE giving TACIT approval to homophobia by their very existence.
And all the protests to the contrary are empty words when the evidence of your life speaks otherwise.
But denial and delusion IS the stock and trade of ex gays.
So again, Anon....don' take it so personally.
You one in a legion who ARE self deluded and in self denial, and all for the prospect of not having to live like gay people are made to.
Let's just say, you're right. To make your own decisions, to live as you choose and in whatever way you want to be happy.
But do NOT expect any applause and accolades and compliments for it from gay people.
Can you handle that?
Even if an ex black donated money to the NAACP and went to picket at a segregated lunch counter...what's the point?
Even in institutionalized racism, blacks had their places and their uses.
But in the case of an ex gay-it's a matter of beind dead to the world. Your identity no longer exists and those who wish gay people dead, win.
THEY win, not gay people at large.
So this is why, I can understand if you want your decision to rest as your own fine.
But don't expect that you did a great good and kindness by doing so.
And THAT'S what I'm busting you on.
So Anon, I accept that you're only doing for YOURSELF, and what's good FOR YOU.
But it fucks up a lot of other things along the way.
posted by Regan, at
3/27/2007 3:27 PM
I'm sorry, but to say that NARTH does not endorse Cohen is not true. All of that weird stuff he does on TV was in his book. Cohen was selling his book at the NARTH conference in DC. He was leading one of the main seminars. Clearly, they support his methods.
However, once Cohen did on TV what they endorsed in private, they tried to distance themselves. Even they had to admit that the therapy they thought was dandy, looked absurd on TV.
Sorry, but these are the facts.
http://www.narth.com/docs/report.html
There is no getting around it. NARTH is run by a bunch of quacks. If not, then how did Cohen get the featured speaking gig AFTER his bizarre book came out?
posted by Wayne Besen, at
3/27/2007 4:19 PM
Anonymous, you never answered my question which I posed to you yesterday. After you said that God doesn't reject anyone, I asked whether or not, in your opinion, openly-gay people go to heaven. What's your answer?
posted by , at
3/27/2007 4:36 PM
It isn't Wayne Besen who signs his posts with "anonymous"...
posted by , at
3/27/2007 4:53 PM
Dumb ass says: "What you saw was years ago - things, organizations, ideas, change. Should I hold you accountable for things you did in your youth?"
1) NARTH is not run by youths but quacks who want to be seen as respectable psychologists.
2) If NARTH has at any time endorsed the bizarre therapy of Cohen (which they did) it is a permanent stain and brings into question their credibility, integrity and understanding of psychology. I'm not sure why they thought Cohen's methods were ever okay.
The truth is, NARTH never rejected Cohen's methods. But, they don't like the awful PR he brings. But it is not just Cohen. Schoenewolf's essay justifying slavery this year was even worse....NARTH is a repository of discredited quacks with weird methods and strange views.
posted by Wayne Besen, at
3/27/2007 5:00 PM
Wow, Cohen actually blames The Daily Show for making him look foolish?! He's the one who belched and "shook-it-off" to show that he's straight.
The piece was brilliant. I always wondered what that cassette tape that Besen's parents bought for him actually sounds like.
posted by Dustin, at
3/27/2007 6:43 PM
To Whom it May Concern,
I spoke with my mother this evening about when we used to walk in the Gay Parade and how we joined PFLAG. I told her I was disappointed that many gays have taken to using decietful ways to promote themselves and their rights. Back in the day she and I sat on panels, worked at the booths, gave local interviews etc... to promote the legal and civil rights of gays. She is my champion.
Tonight she assures me ( a 40 something woman who is no less still her daughter) that though there is shame everywhere there are still good people in the world. She knows that the Christian Fundamentalists make life hell for some and so do some gays. It was not what we expected when we were both younger and niave. Yes, even mothers are innocent.
So while I may be scrapped around for my radical views, I will continue to voice my concerns and petition both gays ( and other liberals like myself) and christian fundamentalists for open communication, non judgement of others, and peace between.
posted by , at
3/28/2007 1:42 AM
To Chris,
I don't know who goes to heaven - that's God's decision not mine.
posted by , at
3/28/2007 2:37 PM
Anonymous at 2:37p.m., do you believe that Richard Cohen uses a medically sound clinical methodology and that it is successful in getting people's sexual desire to change from same to opposite-sex?
And do you believe that psychologists and others associated with NARTH use a medically sound clinical methodology that is successful in getting people's sexual orientation to change from same to opposite-sex?
posted by , at
3/30/2007 2:18 PM
I just noticed that Richard Cohen describes himself as a counsellor on his website www.gaytostraight.org/meetrichard.htm
There we read "As an expert in sexual reorientation therapy - both as a counsellor and through his own personal experience......"
As Wayne has shown, Cohen was expelled from the American counselling association, and has since stated that what he does is NOT counselling but is COACHING. Yet his website specifially says that he IS a counsellor.
posted by , at
3/30/2007 7:49 PM
Cohen has been removed from Narth's bookstore, PFOX website and Exodus has placed very prominently on it's policy page that is does nto support Cohen.
Phil,
I cannot make claims about Cohen's effectiveness except to say that the reparative therapists I know do not support his ideas or methods. And while Cohen has been removed from many of the ex gay web sites Cohen still promotes others on his own website. I think the only ex gay websites Cohen is now on are the anti ex gay web sites.
posted by , at
3/31/2007 1:15 PM
Anonymous at 1:15p.m., DO YOU BELIEVE that Richard Cohen uses a medically sound clinical methodology and that it is successful in getting people's sexual desire to change from same to opposite-sex?
And DO YOU BELIEVE that psychologists and others associated with NARTH use a medically sound clinical methodology that is successful in getting people's sexual orientation to change from same to opposite-sex?
If you decline to state your belief on these two questions, that's fine, just say so.
posted by , at
3/31/2007 3:09 PM
I do not believe that Cohen is sound.
As for NARTH, I know of therapists associated with them. I have valued and have benefited from them. I cannot speak for ALL people. I cannot speak for all therapists associated with NARTH.
In a one on one therapuetic relationship, sometimes it just does not resonate well between the two. Just as is the case for ALL people seeking counseling - you have to interview, evaluate, and make a decision to move forward with that person or not.
posted by , at
3/31/2007 4:21 PM
Thank you anonymous. You mention knowing of some who have benfitted from consulting NARTH therapists.
Does the benefit of which you speak involve, for at least some persons, a disappearance of homosexual desire and an appearance of heterosexual desire? Would any persons you know who have benefitted in that way TO COMPLETION be willing to describe the process and timescale of the change?
posted by , at
3/31/2007 4:50 PM
Not in this forum, Phil. If you are interested in trying it for yourself please visit those professionals at those websites and consult with them.
posted by , at
3/31/2007 9:48 PM
Phil, doesn't it strike you as strange that individual people don't have the same experiences???
And doesn't it strike you as strange that I spoke of myself and that was it and did not speak of others??
And doesn't it strike you as strange that you twisted what I said?
posted by , at
3/31/2007 11:34 PM
Anonymous, Anonymouses, Anonymis; you should all check what exgaywatch.com has to say about these groups that you all hold so dear their affiliation with Cohen.
Wayne has done his part and you won't hear it. Check and see what a group of interested bloggers have to say.
posted by jekelhyde, at
4/01/2007 12:45 AM
You know what, anonymous? Truly, no person anywhere at any time has ever completed a change in sexual desire from same-sex to opposite-sex by any kind of clinical methodology.
It's all kid-ology and a chimerical delusion.
posted by , at
4/01/2007 10:45 AM
Um, some would see homosexuality as a chimeric delusion. But hey, if you want to call people names for authentic lives - go ahead and do so. Sorry I'm not living the way you do. I just choose not to. I won't call you chimeric though because I know you truly believe you were born gay. So, please live your life to the fullest and on your terms.
posted by , at
4/01/2007 12:30 PM
JH, as of the week ending, Cohen has been removed from most of these places. He is NOT an expert or a foremost leader or an anything to most ex gays. He is a silly, misguided, unwise man. And many in the ex gay community know it and (instead of totally bashing him the way gays do with other people) they have just stopped association with him. He has pretty much proven that he is unreachable to common sense and guidance.
posted by , at
4/01/2007 12:32 PM
JH - exgaywatch is not the definitive answer - as if there could ever be such a thing. Anyhow, I have checked out exgaywatch - um, maybe you should, too???
posted by , at
4/01/2007 3:38 PM
Um... I have. Or else I wouldn't have mentioned it. Your point????
posted by jekelhyde, at
4/01/2007 11:26 PM
If ex-gay ministries say they have proof that they can convert a homosexual to an heterosexual orientation, why don't they see if they can convert a heterosexual to an homosexual instead to prove that homosexuality is a choice and not a naturally born orientation as they claim it isn't? The truth of the matter is, they can't. If they had real evidence based on years of scientific and medical research, then why are their findings not published in any of the major reputable scientific and medical literature?
Robert, NYC.
posted by , at
4/02/2007 9:37 AM
Hear Hear, Robert!
As someone said in an online comment on the whole "ex-gay" and "reparative therapy" scene, the best way to counter charges of lack of scientific evidence...... is to produce scientific evidence!
posted by , at
4/02/2007 12:04 PM
You can change a heterosexual to a homosexual through gay affirming therapy.
posted by , at
4/02/2007 12:38 PM
BTW, have we found the gay gene, yet?
posted by , at
4/02/2007 1:39 PM
Richard Cohen has been on my show twice. We (Jackie Enx a transgendered co host) treated him with the utmost respect.
We found that the old texas saying...give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves worked well with him.
His message is flawed. No PR person in the world could help him out of that...not even Howard Bragman, who is currently working with Issiah Washington.
Jack Jett
posted by Jack E. Jett, at
4/02/2007 4:26 PM
Anonymous, no, the gay gene hasn't yet been found, neither has the straight one!
Robert, NYC.
posted by , at
4/03/2007 8:22 AM
Well, then at the present what does that say about our knowledge of sexuality (besides the fact that the gender gene has been identified)
posted by , at
4/03/2007 2:48 PM
To digress, Paul Cameron is off on one of his hate rampages again, check out the link below.
Robert, NYC.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-4070.html
posted by , at
4/04/2007 6:54 AM
"Psychological Reports" in which most of Cameron's "papers" appear to be publiushed, seems to be a form of Vanity Publishing. You pay to have them accept your "paper".
posted by , at
4/04/2007 11:31 AM
To Anon, (last post)
These Anonymous posts are making it difficult to address the right person and comment effectively.
Eventually you'll confuse or be confused...an initial, SOMETHING would help the discussion, otherwise I don't think you should be allowed here.
At any rate, what the lack of heterosexuality/homosexuality gene means, is no anamolies or especially, ABHERRANT activity within the chromosome, gene map or biochemical functions of gay and straight people.
Even those with serious mental illness or even acute issues, can be shown through PET scans, and such situations can be corrected with medications and standards of care that bring substantial results.
Science is a RESULTS oriented art.
So is SOCIAL science.
The results of addiction, or any other reactive (sins in religious believe) behaviors are evident in the extreme.
And are not exclusive to a group. Not a single group.
However, one could argue that MEN are more promiscuous than men because the physical results are very different for them than women.
But we also know that religious people have usually been the most reluctant to agree with or understand...or even believe scientific results.
In our society, we are more eager to embrace this, and the acceleration of our control over the natural world has resulted.
It is fair, that gays and lesbians should be frustrated with the religious communities arrogance, stubborness...and distortion towards scientific results.
If they refuse to see, or believe these results, I think they deserve the disrespect we all feel.
Social science experiements have done their work. The purpose was for specific reasons, so that religious influence on social policy won't continue to DO HARM.
The medical and psychiatric establishments are obligated TO DO NO HARM.
That goes for applied methods, as well as social integration.
We know the results of homophobia, (which we all know drives the ex gay industry as well as any other REACTIVE policies towards gay people) does more harm than good.
However, there is VERY little, if ANY proof that maintaining these policies or anti gay industries has done any good.
When the bad is outweighing the good, than the smart people in the room would say that it's time to stop committing to or doing the SAME socio/political/psychiatric policies that do nothing good, and do much harm and put all kinds of people at risk.
These eventually will cost the public a lot of money, or effort or other forms of indirect damage.
For example, the loss of skilled gay soldiers.
The lack of transfer of medical health care coverage to a beloved or children.
Legions of children languishing without ANY parental units, while our society wig wags over two mommies or two daddies.
There IS obviously talent in this pool of folks, and our society is fixated on gay sex, INSTEAD of the societal skills required for public integration.
And we exclude the talent, and the sex lives and homosexuality go on without society benefitting in every other way.
Genetics might be reasonable for the sake of curiosity.
But THE most important aspects of a gay person's social integration has been asked, answered and the results are there for all to see. But the results get ignored, talent wasted, and we all lose.
The genetic component seems less important given all the rest that we do know.
And if heterosexuals stopped and considered FOR ONE SECOND, that gay people were their sexual equals, two sides of the same genetic, socio sexual coin...we'd all get along much better.
But the most strictly religious heterosexuals don't seem to believe they are obligated to get along with ANYONE, but someone just like them.
This is historical fact and evidence.
Even people who are normal, functional and just as intelligent as they are.
But where minorities and women are concerned, history is rife with the refusal to give up that bone of supremacy.
posted by Regan, at
4/04/2007 11:33 AM
I just watched the videos. Rich Cohen - what a nutjob. He's screaming about getting a PR guru, but if he's chasing the media, wouldn't it help for him to know what avenues he makes appearances on? It's not "a show is a show is a show," Mr. Cohen. But, like a good media whore, he'll be out for more, even after the burn.
The video was hilarious! Burping and shaking his crotch - yeah, that's real manly. Ridiculous dislay.
The letter from Cohen - a waste of paper.
posted by shinichi evans, at
4/07/2007 5:09 AM
"But where minorities and women are concerned, history is rife with the refusal to give up that bone of supremacy."
And so you make it your decision to protect white, gay men. HAhahahha - who have nothing to do with minorities or women.
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