Wayne Besen - Author, Activist, Columnist, Public Speaker

Friday, May 04, 2007

Three Republican Cavemen Revealed In Debate

It is amazing, but in last night's GOP presidential debate, Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS), former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee and Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo raised their clubs when moderator Chris Matthews asked who did not believe in evolution.

In my view, this means they are backward and ineligible to hold office in a modern country. America, if you want to go back to the Stone Age and lose our position in the world (or what is left of it after Bush) then please vote for these intellectual barbarians.

47 Comments:

It has been quite awhile since I've witnessed such a burlesque display of intellectual degeneracy as I did in last night's republican debate. It's no wonder that this country is in such trouble. Having said that, I have to take my hat off to Rudy Giuliani, the one candidate who didn't seem to be tripping over himself to hide his moderate leanings. Being from New York City certainly has its benefits!
posted by Chris L., at 5/04/2007 11:00 AM

Unfortunately there is no requirement for a passing IQ resembling a degree of intelligence on the part of a candidate to the highest office of the land. If there were, the present holder obviously wouldn't be there! The camp of Republican hopefuls at the debate is divided between the so called religious political whores who will flip flop and say anything to get elected (Romney and McCain) and the truly stupid religionists(Brownback et al). How can the most advanced nation in the world continue to reward such stupidity and backwardness from its politicos? We continue to be the laughing stock of the world!
richard schillen
posted by richard schillen, at 5/04/2007 12:40 PM

"Most advanced nation in the world?" NOT! At least not on social issues, we're at the bottom and not much is going to change with a Democrat in office either. None of them have the guts to take a stand and tell us that they believe in full equality, even after they're elected! For more years of the same is what we're going to get.

Robert, NYC.
posted by Robert, at 5/05/2007 7:54 AM

One of the guests on Bill Maher last night said those 3 republican hopefuls who raised their hands about not believing in evolution were the least evolved of the bunch (laugh--good one). Maher also had a good monologue at the end of the show about how France is so much more advanced than we are in many ways (especially socially and in health care) even though the French are the favorite whipping boys of the right wing because they wouldnt allow our psychotic lying sack of shit president to suck them into an illegal war which has cost trillions of dollars and 100,000s of lives.
Red V
posted by Anonymous, at 5/05/2007 10:13 AM

Red V, I too saw the Maher show. Yes, France and most of the EU countries have better health care systems in terms of the delivery of health care; everybody has access to universal health care, and in spite of scare tactics that republicans use to block any semblance of universal health care in the U.S., it is only elective surgeries in the EU countries where you wait for a procedure, nothing that is serious. Other than that, Eu citizens do not have to face the awful prospect of having to lose their home or lifesavings to pay for some catastrophic illness that U.S. health insurance companies refuse to cover. Its a disgrace we don't have a more caring system here. Holland, Belgium, Spain, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, UK, France, Germany, all have done far better on social and health issues than we have. Its a disgrace we haven't.

Robert, NYC.
posted by Robert, at 5/05/2007 3:27 PM

When I first visited Canada, it was a bittersweet experience. On the first day, I was looking for their version of Greenwich Village, and a Canadian woman actually stopped on the street and, seeing me looking at a map, asked to help! I told her that I wanted to go to "the village", to which she responded "The Gay Village?" I said yes and, with a simple smile, she pointed me in the right direction. A day later, on our tour bus, the bus operator made sure to point out "The Gay Village".

Only after seeing how they have considerably fewer hangups about gay people did I fully realize how badly our country is infected with not only homophobia, but a general ignorance as well. It was a sad realization to see that "with liberty and justice for all" is just a meaningless slogan here as our people still think they have a right to vote on our civil rights. Coming home to the states and seeing GW Bush announce that we are hated "because of our freedoms" is just icing on the cake. It really is incredible. With fifty million Jesus freaks rushing to the polls every four years, I don't see this changing anytime soon.
posted by Chris L., at 5/05/2007 4:20 PM

Unfortunately the 'Jesus freaks' are just religion addicts who dont really have Jesus at all. I belong to an Episcopal church in Philadelphia which is very gay friendly and inclusive. The fascist whack jobs give the rest of us a bad name. By the way, did you see where NJ's ex-governor and openly gay Jim McGreevy has been accepted into an episcopal seminary in NYC and *might* become a priest. Go figure! You couldnt make this stuff up.
posted by Anonymous, at 5/05/2007 4:34 PM

Speaking of candidates, I just heard that nutcase Alan Keyes will be running for prez under the Constitution Party - that's all we need. Relatedly, have you seen Guy Adams' new piece on Obama at http://www.valuesusa.net/whatobamawants.html ??? Just awful. Barrack speaks with dignity and Adams trashs him.
posted by LeftWingWarrior, at 5/06/2007 2:48 PM

Speaking of candidates, I just heard that Alan Keyes will be running for prez under the Constitution Party - that's all we need. Relatedly, have you seen Guy Adams' new piece on Obama at http://www.valuesusa.net/whatobamawants.html ??? Just awful. Barrack speaks with dignity and Adams trashs him.
posted by LeftWingWarrior, at 5/06/2007 2:48 PM

Folger is a wingnut, along with Peter Labarbera, Guy Adams and Pink ie., Debra Smith. Will these nuts ever desist? I just saw a new site by Adams, www.ValuesUSA.net -- will the hate ever diminish? What is so reprehensible about our lifestyle that aggravates them so?
posted by LeftWingWarrior, at 5/06/2007 4:45 PM

You ask, "What is so reprehensible about our lifestyle that aggravates them so?"

When it comes to the authoritarian haters, I have always thought that it isn't about homosexuality per se at all. Instead it's about their weakness and need for a world which is solidly black and white (hence the usual accompanying Biblical literalism).

But these types always fail in life, because the world just isn't black and white! It's shades grey and many other colors, and anyone who's been around awhile has come to accept this in some way, and even appreciate it! In America, where we have puritanical leanings to boot, sexual variance is likely to confound a lot of the simpletons.
posted by Chris L., at 5/07/2007 2:00 PM

Many people dont know this, but a literal, fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible was a development from around the early 20th century; in most of Christian history, this view was considered heresy!! What a pleasant daydream to think of Dobson, Falwell and the rest of their ilk being burned at the stake.
posted by Anonymous, at 5/07/2007 4:27 PM

Yes it is true! Biblical literalism is a modern development. Even Jesus confounded the fundies of his day by saying, "I know the scripture says this, but I say otherwise...", which, of course, made them go berzerk and kill him off. Evangelical religion defended the slave trade in the mid 1800s, and, as a result, became very unpopular in this country. Our 1980s saw a rise in fundamentalism once again, but the people eventually get sick of it and move away from it. After 8 years of GW, I have to believe that more people have woken up to the pointlessness of such religious fascism.
posted by Chris L., at 5/07/2007 4:36 PM

Chris
dont underestimate the studpidity and intellectual laziness of the American public. Kentucky just opened a high tech zillion dollar 'museum' dedicated to creationism. Among other bullshit, they teach that dinosaurs and humans were on the earth at the same time (this is called Flintstonesism), that dinosaurs were on Noah's arc (can you imagine the shit loads he had to clean up) that the earth is only about 8000 years old and the Grand Canyon was the result of Noah's flood (maybe all that dinosaur piss added to the flow). The willful ignorance and fear of science of these people boggle the mind. Not only those of us in the reality based community, but also the science community must become more militant in countering their dark ages propaganda campaign and the "christian" madrassas in the these red states whose brainwashing of their children with all this nonsense borders on child abuse.
Red V
posted by Anonymous, at 5/07/2007 7:37 PM

These three are indeed idiots, but I believe any belief in invisible supernatural friends is idiotic. Barak Obama believes that a ghost came down from heaven, impregnated an underage virgin who gave birth to a son who rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven. How is that any less stupid than believing the earth was created in a week?
posted by Anonymous, at 5/07/2007 10:01 PM

Ah, so you guys claim to believe in natural selection.

Can anyone tell me whether, in thousands of generations of natural selection, there was ever "same-sex marriage"? Males breeding children with surrogate mothers? Women breeding children with sperm donors? Does anyone really think that this is a good thing and that public policy should favor it? If you do, you are crazy.

So the Republicans are crazy. I agree. But so is the guy who runs this website. Where in the world, except a few countries in the West that have lost their minds and their wills to reproduce, is there a "gay rights movement"? Nowhere. Nowhere in history, nowhere in the world.
posted by Sophia, at 5/08/2007 12:00 AM

Sophia, since your fellow right wingnuts contend that marriage is solely for the procreation of children and for the better good of society, then what do you say to married heterosexuals who can't produce biologically? Or, what about heterosexual couples who marry and who do not wish to have children? Should we Gays push for an amendment to ban them from marrying? Maybe we should also push for a test to be given to straight couples intending to marry to determine if they are fertile. If they're not, then they too should be excluded from marriage. Your compatriots of the right wing ideology can't cherrypick scripture and single out Leviticus to justify discrimination or the denial of marriage equality. If that is the case, then you have to allow polygamy, the killing of one's wife for adultery and also the killing of one's children; not being allowed to have sexual relationshihps with your wife during menstruation; foregoing shellfish, not shaving your beard off....many more that are all in scripture relevant to heterosexuals and written by MEN, NOT your socalled god. Your argument doesn't hold water any more. You're losing the cultural war and your desperation is very apparent. Can you also provide evidence that same-sex marriage in Holland, Belgium, Spain, S. Africa and Canada has harmed western society and how have marriages in those truly democratic countries harmed marriage in general? The answer is, they haven't! Your comments are nothing more than classic homophobia and your air of moral superiority, assuming you are heterosexual is abhorrent. The only threat to marriage is the heterosexual with his or her persistent acts of adultery, spousal abuse, child molestation (overhwelmingly an heterosexual aberration according to goverment statistics), marrying second cousins (oddly not considered incest)the list goes on.

Another thing, since you condemn Gay people from having children via surrogate mothers, then you should equally condemn the infertile heterosexual married woman who seeks invitro insemination. You can't have it both ways, one law for your kind and none for us.

Robert, NYC.
posted by Robert, at 5/08/2007 8:10 AM

I stopped reading when I read this:

"Sophia, since your fellow right wingnuts"

I have nothing to prove to you but in case you were wondering:

1. I'm an atheist
2. I protested against this crazy war
3. Would stick needles in my eyes before I vote for Bush
3. Am a firm believer in the fact of evolution, and of its effects on our genome. Which apparently you are not.

It may surprise you and your fellow gay wingnuts, but not everyone who disagrees with you is a wingnut, or right wing. Some of us are just people who think that creating intentionally motherless or fatherless families is a bad idea and does not optimize the genetically endowed personality that was shaped by natural selection. We've already got too many fatherless families in the black community and look at the results.

As for your counter-examples. (denying marriage to straight people who don't procreate), it's tosh. No one thinks that childless straight couples are the norm. They get a free ride, so to speak, because they are straight. I do concede that you have a point: it ain't fair. Well guess what, buddy, so's life. "Normalizing" homosexuality will have a variety of ill effects. Children aren't guinea pigs.
posted by Sophia, at 5/08/2007 8:25 AM

Sophia, how convenient, you're an atheist, tsk, tsk!! The truth of the matter is, you can't stomach the truth. Childless straight couples are NOT the norm and the reason why Gay marriage is a hot topic is that the people you agree with on the religious right who are opposed to it, infuse their prejudice with religious bigotry and hypocrisy to justify blatant discrimination. This is about full civil rights, not religious beliefs. Marriage is a civil right. How would you like it if you were forbidden to marry because you're an atheist or anything else that doesn't fit the NORM? Marriage to fundamentalists is for the sole purpose of procreation, nothing more, they do not equatelove as the number one reason why someone should have the freedom to marry. So by your condemnation of same-sex marriage, you condone discrimination against millions of people in same-sex relationships, some of whom have biological and adopted children whose children are also discriminated against by denying them any part of the 1138 plus federal rights that married heterosexuals enjoy. In other words, you're sanctioning legislation against not only gay couples but their children, but its obvious by your conviction opposing our freedom to marry that it is right and just. In a true democracy, all citizens should be treated equally, no exception. Step into our shoes for one day of your life and see what its like to be discriminated against.

Robert, NYC.
posted by Robert, at 5/08/2007 2:48 PM

Oh and another thing Sophia, whoever you claim to be...what about widowed men and women who are left with children to raise after the death of a spouse? What do you say to them? The right wing is pretty silent about that, but I guess its okay with you because they're heterosexual and raise kids better than a Gay parent simply because they've been married.
posted by Robert, at 5/08/2007 2:53 PM

sophia is a plant. He/she/it is paid to be here to provoke arguement. Otherwise I would presume that she is a a closet homo who hates what she is. Which is it, sophia???
posted by jekelhyde, at 5/08/2007 5:21 PM

Jekylhyde, I think you're right. After I'd posted my comments, it dawned one me this is probably a "man" from one of the failed ex-gay ministires. Odd how they come here to vent their bigotry. Why do they obsess so much about our sex lives? If they were that comfortable with their own sexual orientation, it wouldn't bother them to come here and vent, but obviously it does. For "his" information, I'm a firm believer in evolution too.
posted by Robert, at 5/09/2007 8:12 AM

Sophia, contrary to your baseless assertions the overwhelming majority of social science evidence shows children of same sex couples do just as well, if not better than children raised by opposite sex couples. The problem is not with dual parent "motherless" or "fatherless" families, it is with single parent families that are overwhelmed with responsibilities. Regardless of whether you taint gays with the "abnormal" label or not those families will have children and its best that they have two parents who are legally bonded to them through marriage.
posted by Randi Schimnosky, at 5/09/2007 4:37 PM

Sad, another possibly enlightening debate destroyed by name-calling. It died before it even had a chance to live!

I understand you were offended by Sophia, and you had every right to be. Personally, I was suprised she got as "huffy" as she did by the term "right wingnuts" when she basically said you were all unnatural freaks. Honestly, did she expect a cookie for that on this site? However, rising to her bait won't get you anywhere. She seems like an intellectual person (or imagines herself to be) why don't you try using logic and facts instead of insulting her?
posted by Anonymous, at 5/10/2007 9:27 PM

I am very disappointed in both the originator of this post as well as most of the others who have posted comments. Not believing in evolution does NOT make someone an idiot or an intellectual degenerate. We are supposed to be a country of diversity, a melting pot so to speak. Those who believe in creationism, or have some sort of religion are constantly told to "tolerate" the things the view as fundamentally wrong (such as homosexuality) and most do (I admit there are a lot of radicals out there, but they are on BOTH sides). However the individuals on this post appear to be completely intolerant of anyone who does not support their view of evolution. Some of the comments made were "religious whores", "stupid religionist" and so on. Did it ever occur to anyone that to be tolerated you have to show tolerance. Everyone has a right to believe what they want in regards to religion, especially in this country and those who choose to believe in a "higher power" should not be looked down on just because of their belief system. Personally I don't care what you believe, but you have the right to your opinion just as I have the right to mine. Just remember, Tolerance should go both ways!
posted by Anonymous, at 9/06/2007 9:18 AM

In response to the last message posted by Anonymous, at 9/06/2007 9:18 AM:

I totally agree with you on all of your points, if it’s a stand-alone message. I agree that ANYONE has the right to religious belief and should tolerate others for that matter. However, the originator of this particular post and all the other commentators were not talking about ANYONE. They were talking about the President of the USofA, the single most important job on the planet. And guess what, the president is not ANYONE, and not ANYONE can be a president. And therefore the rule applying to ANYONE does not necessarily applies to the President. Definitely not in this case.

So basically Mr. Anonymous was talking about a different issue from the others. Therefore no argument and no need to be disappointed. The next question might be why those who don’t believe in evolution can’t make good president. Here’s why:

Evolution is not just a religious argument. In essence it’s one of the gazillion results of centuries of scientific research, like our microwaves. Refusing evolution is the same as discrediting scientific research in general (because all science researches follow the same principles of scientific methodologies). Of course anybody can believe in whatever one wants, but why is discrediting science research (closely related to education of course) unacceptable for the American president?

The reason why the USofA is the most powerful nation in the world today can in a large part be attributed to its tradition of supporting science research and education. Harvard was built long before the nation itself. Today America boasts the most and the best higher education institutes, just as any greatest civilizations in history did. Nobody can ignore the correlation between a nation’s total number of Nobel Prize Laureates and the nation’s position in the world in terms of economic development, military power, living standards, etc. Discrediting science research and education would definitely jeopardize America’s number one position. And it’s already happening under the current administration. Funding for science research and education were cut; college tuitions were soaring, resulting in more education debt and less enrollment. In terms of patents and research papers, other countries are catching up. China is sending people to the moon and had already shot down a satellite with a missile. Wake up, America!

As I mentioned, the American President can’t be just anybody. He or she doesn’t have to be scientifically trained, but the president must have solid logical thinking capabilities as the foundation for decision-making. If there had been just a little logical thinking involved, the American military wouldn’t have been used to attack one country while the real enemy was hiding in another. Even dogs know to bite whoever abuses them, not innocent passersby.

“Some things were done so stupidly, even cavemen would not have done!”

If there’s any attack on evolution, here’s their best evidence: Some people never evolved. Even worse, they thrived against all odds of natural selection!
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