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Wayne Besen
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An Israeli researcher claimed this week that Moses was likely high on hallucinogenic drugs when he spoke to God and saw the burning bush. This finding is quite interesting, because it means that all the major monotheistic religions have built their foundation on a "trip."
"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Professor Shanon told Israeli public radio.
So, at least Moses had an excuse for his odd visions - unlike today's fundamentalists who hear God and take orders from Him while they are stone-cold sober.
31 Comments:
We get Wayne. You don't believe in God either from a Jewish perspective nor a christian perspective. (By the way Moses was defintely Jewish and not a Christain) So - I'm not really sure who you are picking on today.
But high or not, the ten commandments are still a pretty good idea. Kudos to Moses if he came up with this while intoxicated.
posted by Anonymous, at
3/05/2008 12:52 PM
Perhaps, I believe in God - but not irrational, primitive, anti-science, often-violent religious dogma - as it is obvious you do. Here's an interesting concept, God gave us brains so we could think for ourselves. Try using yours.
Please refrain from defining my belief system - as it is likely you don't know what you are talking about. Nor, do I suspect, you have a clue about the realm of religion or God.
The article in question is actually quite fascinating, but I doubt the religionists would take the time to actually read it before rejecting it based upon their presuppositions. Personally, I don't know if there is a higher deity (neither does anyone else), but I do know that religionists contaminated the process with these silly fables, stories which have robbed many of us of true spirituality. After dumping such foolishness, the real search for God begins. It's a journey that we will all die before finishing, but it is each individual's choice to seek God in their own way.
posted by Chris L., at
3/05/2008 1:49 PM
This may be true as most ancient religions and shamans used mind altering substances, but of course it's not definitive about Moses. But many people of different faiths, including Christian mystics, have had psychic/mystical visions or experiences without being on drugs. Near the end of his life, St. Thomas Aquinas, who wrote a magnum opus on Catholic theology, had a spiritual vision or trance experience of some sort while in church. Afterwards he became dejected and said, 'everything I have written is just straw'. I guess the universe is *queerer* than we can suppose (in more ways than one). Gary (NJ)
posted by Anonymous, at
3/05/2008 3:17 PM
I think it's as pointless to deduce whether people were "high" while "talking to God" as it is pointless to determine whether Moses or Abraham actually existed. That's not what I take away from the Torah, or the Ten Commandments, or whatever. People can find statistics and research on just about ANYTHING, I've found.
posted by Emily K, at
3/05/2008 3:22 PM
So anonymous, the 10 Commandments are a "good idea"? Really? They don't even prohibit slavery or rape. In fact women are pretty much treated like property. And "thou shalt not murder" obviously didn't apply to foreigners, since Yahweh has no problem ordering Moses to commit genocide against non-Hebrew cultures.
Laws are a standard for any civilization, and compared to something like the U.S. Constitution, the 10 Commandments are inferior to say the least.
The tripping argument is interesting, and I've heard it applied to biblical figures before, but not to Moses. Usually Ezekial (when they're not saying he was visited by aliens).
Then again, the Bible is a mishmash of myths and stories frankensteined together from several different cultures and points of view, so to paraphrase Richard Dawkins, you would expect it to be weird. The evolution of cultures and religious syncretism are sufficient to explain the folkloric aspects.
posted by Eshto, at
3/05/2008 8:01 PM
Fair enough Wayne. But niether do you know what God I believe in . My God is not some irrational dude in the sky either.
Eshto The ten commandments were a good idea and a good start. I did not say they were the only good rules - did I? Yes, we have added to them - but you missed the point that if Moses was trippin' - the 10 rules were a pretty good start. As far as folks following the rules - well - we know they don't.
posted by Anonymous, at
3/05/2008 10:25 PM
Seriously, Eshto, I hope whomever did whatever they did to you to make you this angry and bitter gets what's coming to them.
posted by Emily K, at
3/05/2008 11:06 PM
Emily K,
I used to be as angry, too. Eventually, I learned that it doesn't matter what others did to me but what I did with myself that counted. And I did not want to be in an embattled bitter life.
People do horrible things to others. I know - I have rec'd that treatment. Getting back at someone was not the answer for me. But I certainly do understand your sentiments.
posted by Anonymous, at
3/06/2008 12:48 AM
What do Americans have in common with Moses?
They both listened to a Bush that claimed to speak for God that got them stuck in a Middle Eastern desert for years with no good way out!
"Seriously, Eshto, I hope whomever did whatever they did to you to make you this angry and bitter gets what's coming to them."
I'm not angry Emily, it's just critical thinking and common sense.
I know you're emotionally attached to your Jewish ancestry, and that's just fine.
But other civilizations had come up with laws for their citizens long before the ancient Hebrews did. It's a given - you have people living together you need rules. There's no need to single out any one ancient culture just because, like all organized groups of people, they enforced laws - especially when compared to today's standards many of those laws would be considered positively barbaric.
The idea of there being some special "10 Commandments" that stand out from the rest of ancient Hebrew law is something of a storytelling convention anyway.
And as I already mentioned, most people don't even understand that, just like our nations' laws, the Hebrews' laws were meant for their own nation, not everyone on the planet, which is exactly why Moses had no problem killing foreigners even after he commanded his fellow Jews not to kill each other.
People act like Hebrew law was set up as some grand universal morality for all humankind, which is just preposterous.
posted by Eshto, at
3/06/2008 2:25 AM
As a Buddhist Christian I find the FIVE Precepts of Buddhism to be simpler yet much more comprehensive in moral and ethical guidance as compared to the TEN Commandments.
1. To refrain from causing harm (including physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual harm) to any sentient being.
2. To refrain from taking anything that is not freely given.
3. To refrain from sexual misconduct (ie. rape, sexual abuse, sexual manipulation, having sex with someone in a committed relationship, breaking a vow of monogamy to a partner, etc; homosexual sex is held to the same misconduct standards as heterosexual sex).
4. To refrain from untruthfulness.
5. To refrain from clouding the mind (consciousness) with excessive drink, drugs, etc.
That's special Zeke, but again, that's not law, that's personal philosophy and lifestyle, very different from the Hebrew laws and religious regulations recorded in the Jewish Scriptures/Old Testament.
And if you don't mind me asking, Buddhists don't believe in a personal God, so how can you simultaneously be one, and a Christian? Or have you simply taken what you like from both religions and formed a new hybrid one?
By the way do you have any personal commandments about what you SHOULD do, rather than just what you should avoid?
posted by Eshto, at
3/06/2008 2:34 AM
I had no idea that Buddha's fat ass did not like drugs. I liked him before I learned that. But, no more.
The truth is, anywhere religious people go, there is trouble. There is conflict. They are bad for humanity, plain and simple.
This is not anger with religion, but observable fact. A universe without churches, mosques, and synagogues is a much more peaceful place. How anyone could defend religion as "good" or "holy" is stupefying after all the blood spilled and hatred spewed.
I suspect that if humanity were not stunted by religion, we would be hundreds of years further ahead than where we are now. Thanks to the Christians and Muslims, science and math took a 1000 vacation.
Then the Enlightenment came, and these zealots have been working overtime to turn back the clock ever since.
Zeke, have you ever read the book Jesus and Buddha, the Parallel Sayings. What they taught was almost identical, even the stories/parables were remarkably similar. Some people think Jesus traveled in India and studied Buddhism during the 'lost years'. This seems highly unlikely and scholars have pretty much dismissed it. I think they were both enlightened beings who were just taping into the same Source.
posted by Anonymous, at
3/06/2008 9:59 AM
Peter, the Buddha was not a 'fat ass', he was an Indian monk. That jolly fat man image is from being in too many Chinese restaurants. And calm down, you're free to drug yourself into oblivion if you'd like. Human beings seem to be able to be cruel and rotten with or without religion. As much blood as religion has on its hands, 'godless communism' has been just as bad, if not worse!
posted by Anonymous, at
3/06/2008 10:06 AM
Why is there the compulsion to believe in a supreme deity? What is the purpose and why is it so necessary for many? Where is the overwhelming proof of its existence? I see no point.
posted by Robert, NYC., at
3/06/2008 1:49 PM
Robert
There is a human compulsion to believe in something - anything if something else is not handy.
Some people believe in a cause for humanity - and still the killing continues.
posted by Anonymous, at
3/06/2008 2:13 PM
Eschto, my answer to your question about how I can be Buddhist and Christian would be very long a complicated and would hijack this thread. Since you seem genuinely curious I’ll try to give you the Cliff's Notes version as well as I can.
First, you are correct, Buddhism does not teach that there is a personal God, in fact it doesn’t teach that there is a “god” at all; HOWEVER, it doesn't teach that there ISN’T a God either. Buddhism has always, from its origin, been a life philosophy that can be practiced alone or in tandem with any religion that shares its basic tenants; like fundamental Christianity (as opposed to "fundamentalist" Christianity) does, or should.
Second, what I feel makes me a Christian would be considered blasphemy and heresy by many if not most Christians (including my parents). I don't believe in the virgin birth. I don't believe that Christ was literally the son of God any more than any of the rest of us are. I don't believe in literal miracles but I do believe in metaphors. I don't believe in a literal resurrection and I don't believe in a literal heaven or hell. I don’t even know that Jesus literally existed. I am Christian because I was raised in a spiritual tradition that was focused on the teachings and examples attributed to what I now believe was the fully human yet enlightened Christ; teachings and examples which were, for the most part, the same as those of the Buddha, only 500 years later. Such talk would get me stoned or burned at the stake by many Christian churches and denominations but in my UCC church it seems to be the prevailing understanding of the life and purpose of the man or myth known as Jesus.
Even if I have taken what I like from each one and made my own hybrid faith what's wrong with that? Why would that concern or offend you or anyone? As long as I treat others with kindness, compassion and inclusion does it really matter what my motivations are? Aren't there more important things to concern oneself with than the guidance that a person uses to encourage them to be a better person to his neighbor? I can understand a person’s concern with a person who uses their religion to oppress, hate, harm or exclude others but I really don’t understand why we treat people who fight against all of these things because of and through their faith with the same hostility. I’m not referring to you in particular here Eschto; you’ve been polite and civil to me, but I have had people really attack me for my life philosophy (which I push on no one) without regard to the life and good things that this philosophy has produced through me.
Unlike Paulian Christianity or Islam, Buddhism DEMANDS that people question their beliefs. Buddha himself even demanded that his disciples and followers question and challenge everything he said. He actually chastised his disciples when they didn’t. The Sutras teach that people are required to think for themselves and take NO ONE'S (not even the Buddha's) words as fact without questioning.
Anonymous, yes I have a copy of the Jesus/Buddha sayings. There is some evidence (in ancient Buddhist monasteries in the Himalaya) that Jesus traveled to the east during the "lost years". There is also considerable evidence that "Jesus" never really existed as a man but was the product of Buddhist monks who brought the teachings of the Buddha to the Middle East, half a century after the Buddha's death, and then shoehorned the philosophy into the existing monotheistic Yahweh myth that already existed there. The stories of the experiences of the Christ are identical to those of the Buddha in EVERY way. Even the twelve apostles’ names are lifted directly from the names of the Buddha's twelve disciples. Check out JesusisBuddha.com for more information.
Eschto, how's that for a non-conformist Christian? I'm not even sure that Christ literally existed. I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that he may have been nothing more than a retelling of an actual person in the east (maybe the "gifts" of the Wise Men from the east in the nativity story was actually the story of how Buddhist monks brought the Buddha to Palestine in the form of the Christ myth) or he may have just been a metaphor as all the stories attributed to him certainly were. Even still I think the teachings are good, and at least to me, they have been useful.
That may be a sign of weakness of mind to some but I'll assure you that no one who knows me personally, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, would call me weak minded or naïve.
Note: when I use the term “myth” it does not have the same “fairytale” meaning that we have come to associate with the word. I use it in the way that Joseph Campbell uses it in his wonderful series of interviews with Bill Moyers on “The Power of Myth”.
Sorry. I didn’t do so good with the Cliff’s Notes version.
Zeke, I commend your spiritual and religious identity. And I think you represented yourself finely.
I agree that Humanity would find a way to be hateful and murderous without religion.
Peter from Memphis, it was the Muslims that kept Greek and Roman texts alive by translating them to Arabic. In the middle ages, while christians were busy whipping themselves and packing their skin with dirt to cover the "holes" that would let the Plague in, Muslims and Jews were studying medicine and science, keeping those practices alive, paving the way for the Enlightenment later on.
posted by Emily K, at
3/06/2008 4:10 PM
Emily,
Mudpacks do work to keep out "vermin". Plague was spread by fleas.
posted by Anonymous, at
3/06/2008 6:16 PM
Anonymous, they didn't know that. They thought it was something else. Sometimes, Jews poisoning wells.
posted by Emily K, at
3/06/2008 8:46 PM
I'm well aware of the acts against Jews during this time. But it may have been that the mudpacks worked and they didn't know why. There were alot of crazy notions about the plague at that time. The pope (no I will not capitalize that) had fires burning around him the whole time. It did work but back then no one knew why or how. They probably thought they were keeping the demons away???
(BTW, it is about that time from sketchy records that our family took on catholic traditions - it is thought that we may have been Jewish.) We are not sure.
posted by Anonymous, at
3/06/2008 10:06 PM
Don Wildmon: "Mighty Mouse does cocaine."/"I hear Donald Duck cussing in the old Disney shorts."
Jerry Falwell: "Tinky Winky is a homosexual."
Evangelicals: "The priest in The Little Mermaid has a boner."
These people hallucinating, possibly on some crazy narcotics? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by Scott, at
3/07/2008 5:53 AM
Mighty Mouse smelled flowers - that's heroin not cocaine. And I still look up to him!
And not all people are paranoid like Jerry Falwell - who is dead and gone. And maybe only a certain select group got to hear the one about the priest?? Never heard that one myself.
posted by Anonymous, at
3/07/2008 9:19 PM
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