Wayne Besen - Author, Activist, Columnist, Public Speaker

Wednesday, August 13, 2008

121 Comments:

Indeed. The usual obfuscatory use of language.

It doesn't say "I choose to change from desiring my own sex to desiring the opposite sex". Saying it plainly like that would make it just too obviouly ridiculous.

But, it is what they want you to THINK can happen, even though they dare not spell it out.
posted by Phil, at 8/13/2008 6:39 PM

What was the source for this?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/13/2008 8:16 PM

I can't read it - and I know I'm not blind. Can you provide the source so we can sse it clearly?

Thanks.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/13/2008 8:17 PM

The ad asks, why not respect someone for chosing to change from homosexual to heterosexual, and aside from the falsity of the premise, it is a fair question.

The real problem is that PFOX and conservative Christians do not respect people who are not heterosexual. The entire premise that one should change their sexuality is implicitly judgemental and disrespectful.

If it were possible, why not respect someone's choice to change from heterosexual to homosexual? How would PFOX or conservative Christians treat such a person?

We know - because they assume that homosexuality is chosen, and overtly libel GLBTQ people, pursue discriminatory legislation, revile and defame our relationships, faith, and character, equating us with rapists, murderers, thieves, and worse. These groups actively seek to penalize and prohibit what they perceive to be a choice - homosexuality.

The fact that conservative Christians are so violently threatened by the idea that someone might "chose" to be homosexual is the reason not to respect the decisions of someone who publicizes their choice to pretend to be heterosexual.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/13/2008 8:50 PM

And the Queer Mafia continues to march on. Theirs is an anti-life philosophy of course. As Kant said, we should act only on that maxim whereby we can at the same time will that it should become a universal law. Kant's position was based on reason, not religion, which of course the Mafia hates and derides.

Applying the issue of homosexuality to Kant's reasonable philosophy, we would have to conclude that homosexuality is immoral because if everyone practiced homosexuality, it would be the last generation of humans to do so! The extinction of mankind forever!!
posted by Anonymous, at 8/13/2008 9:40 PM

I'd like to see the ad as it is so I can make a comment. So far, we have a lot of opinions and no real clear ad copy.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/13/2008 9:58 PM

Click the foto and u can read the copy
posted by Wayne Besen, at 8/13/2008 10:56 PM

Doi?! Thanks Wayne. Yeah, my computer skills are lacking some days.

I don't know guys, this seems fair to me. Hey, I don't like Pepsi since I grew up on Coca Cola - but it's their right to advertise.

At least the copy isn't trying to tell those who don't want to change that their life will be better if they tried.

May not like the ad - but it is fair.

I don't really like cigarette ads, or beer ads, or tampon ads - but hey - it's their right. And I don't have to use that product, subscribe to that service, believe that value system or anything else.

Kudos to those who are listening that some people don't want to change. That's HUGE!
posted by Anonymous, at 8/13/2008 11:38 PM

Another question. Where exactly was this ad placed and when?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/13/2008 11:44 PM

Anon at 8:16

It's true you'll never have the respect of those people who are ignorant, unloving, unthoughtful, over righteous etc... You can't change their minds - just like they can't change yours.

At best, its a stand still. At least most people are coming to terms with the variety of sexuality that exists in this world. While there is hypocrisy in the church -it's not just gays that they don't respect but themselves because many have sinned sexually (by their own standards) If only those could be honest with themselves about their real lives - then I think this dichotomy would lessen. I could be wrong but it's those that are the most guilty that seem to scream the loudest at other people.

LOL!! - Now I better go take an inventory of myself for those remarks!! I must be missing some stuff somewhere!!
posted by Anonymous, at 8/13/2008 11:49 PM

gross and sad. that is the first and only thing that comes to mind.
posted by ewe, at 8/13/2008 11:51 PM

"So why not respect me when I chose to leave homosexuality?"
1. Well the first reason to not respect it is that it is self-delusional. If a friend of mine said "I choose to change from human to a box of kleenex" I wouldn't try to enact laws to keep them from thinking they are a box of kleenex, but at the same time I wouldn't respect the choice to lie to oneself.
2. Homosexuality is not a place, a lifestyle, or an agenda. It's not something you can "leave". It is a facet of a human being. You can ignore and supress it, but you can't "leave" it, any more than you can leave being human.

"I chose to change from gay to straight". There's no scientific proof that this is even possible. Even the Jones & Yarhouse "success" stories still retained homosexual desires years after begining ex-gay therapy. See, when I leave my house, it doesn't follow me down the street, popping into view when I least expect it. They may "think" they've left homosexuality, but it appears homosexuality NEVER leaves them.
If this woman wanted to be honest, her sentence would read, "I chose to stop acting on my homosexual desires. I chose to stop identifying myself as gay, though I am not now, nor will I ever be 'straight" If that was the message, then I would have no choice to respect it.
People are entitled to live whatever lives they want, but I don't dole out respect to people who pee in my face and try to tell me it's raining.
posted by Jason, at 8/14/2008 12:00 AM

I am wondering who this woman is. My impression is that there are few if any ex-gays actually associated with PFOX.

John
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 12:17 AM

Jason,
Consider this - an "other" person might think differently than you.

Anyone can make an arguemnt that some aspect of themself is just being human and you can't leave being human.

Let's see? I enjoy coffee but I don't think it is good for me. I'm not talking about how you enjoy coffee and/or whether or not you think it is good for you. Nor am I asking permission from you to stop or limit the amount of coffee I drink. Although, it is perfectly human to enjoy caffeine. That's proven. That's why coffee shops and boutiques are on almost every corner in America. But I choose to stop.

As a friend would you try to get me to stop my foolish desire to limit my caffeine intake. Or would you say that even though you think it is a useless cause, that repect my decision to try and do so?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 12:41 AM

I'm starting to wonder - is there some gay fundamentalist society out there that says a person has to accept the fundamentalist gay view on one's sexuality?

Ewwww, that's kind a creepy - sort of like the fundies back in the 80's who used to talk about the only natural sex was between a man and woman. And now someone gay is saying it's unnatural to follow your own beliefs and values when a person says they don't want to be gay???

Very creepy. Like bizarro world. Even this liberal is having a difficult time with that idea.

Why does everyone want to control someone else??

And please don't me it's about your concern for others - that's same old heap that the fundies tried to push.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 1:25 AM

Sorry PFOX, I don't respect liars.

And I don't respect anyone who helps the Christian right fight against my civil rights.
posted by Eshto, at 8/14/2008 2:05 AM

Here ya go Wayne, I injected a bit of reality into that ad for ya:

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1084/respectth0.jpg
posted by Eshto, at 8/14/2008 3:22 AM

Oops the .jpg got cut off.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img
504/1084/respectth0.jpg
posted by Eshto, at 8/14/2008 3:24 AM

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1084/respectth0.jpg

Good one Eshto! Now that's more like it!
posted by Emproph, at 8/14/2008 4:10 AM

What shocks me most is the usage of the word 'respect'. PFOX doesn't know the meaning nor do evangelicals and neo-cons. Respect to them means, do as say or else.

Beyond that, as Phil said, just another example of obfuscation.
posted by Jon, at 8/14/2008 7:24 AM

Anon, whichever you are,
Generally I don't respond to people who refuse to indentify themselves in some way. But here goes: Nobody is born drinking coffee. Nobody wakes up one day, having never had coffee and says "I think I might be a coffee drinker?!" Coffee is a substance. Enjoying coffee is something you have to be introduced to. Whereas I knew I was gay long before I ever had sex. Coffee Drinkers are defined by what they do: drink coffee. Homosexuality is defined by desire. Acting on it is secondary. The only people who define it as some sort of "lifestyle" or "behavior" are people who don't want those desires, or don't want other people to act on those desires.
You can't compare being gay to drinking coffee, and it's rather insulting to do so.
Medical and Scientific organizations agree that sexual orientation is not changeable, there is nothing wrong with being gay, and attempts to change are likely to be dangerous --- So no, I don't respect self-delusion. Especially not when it's promoted by PFOX, a hate group who tries to remove civil rights protections for gays, and routinely lies about many things. Regina Griggs recently said that over 70% of gay people are HIV+, a ridiculous and unsubstantiated claim.
posted by Jason, at 8/14/2008 7:39 AM

Anonymous said...

"If it were possible, why not respect someone's choice to change from heterosexual to homosexual? How would PFOX or conservative Christians treat such a person?

We know - because they assume that homosexuality is chosen, and overtly libel GLBTQ people, pursue discriminatory legislation, revile and defame our relationships, faith, and character, equating us with rapists, murderers, thieves, and worse. These groups actively seek to penalize and prohibit what they perceive to be a choice - homosexuality.

Well said. Lets face facts, the majority of rapists, muderers, thieves and worse....are straight!

Jason....indeed, ours is not a choice or a lifestyle, whereas, religion (cultism) most definitely is, learned behavior such as bigotry which is what the christo terrorists' belief systems are based on. I see no difference between them and their islamic sharia law-loving terrorist brothers and probably empathize with them.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 8/14/2008 8:39 AM

Jason is right. Lets face it, if this was possible then people would naturally be switching over to the gay side right? RIGHT. yup the christian right. thats all this bullshit is. That smile transmits zero happiness. Look again. She has managed to lock her personhood somewhere deep behind those eyes. Ick. The whole thing makes me feel so sad for such confused people being unnecessarily taken advantage of.
posted by ewe, at 8/14/2008 9:47 AM

Jason, at 12:00 a.m. you said "If this woman wanted to be honest, her sentence would read, "I chose to stop acting on my homosexual desires. I chose to stop identifying myself as gay, though I am not now, nor will I ever be 'straight" If that was the message, then I would have no choice to respect it."

Yes. That is what I was meaning in my original comment (the first in this thread).

John at 12:17 a.m., you wonder who the woman is. I think it would be very interesting to find out. Is she a real person, a lesbian intent on changing the orientation of her sexual desire, or is she in fact just a hired model posing for the advertising photograph? If the former, it would seem plain from the wording, that she has not yet stopped desiring women and started desiring men. It would therefore be interesting to conduct a longitudinal study of her success, with posters appearing, say, every six months intimating how her change in sexual desire was progressing. Based on evidence to date, such a series would run for ten, fifteen, twenty, forty years, with the lady NEVER getting to the stage where the orientation of her desire has changed.

Anonymous at 9:40 p.m. you say "Applying the issue of homosexuality to Kant's reasonable philosophy, we would have to conclude that homosexuality is immoral because if everyone practiced homosexuality, it would be the last generation of humans to do so! The extinction of mankind forever!!"

Then let's not apply Kant. Does he deserve to be applied anyway? I presume, by the reasoning you adduce, that you condemn as immoral those persons who choose to live single celibate lives of unimpeachable service to humanity, and those married couples who choose to remain childless, since if everyone copied the immoral practice of such persons, it would lead to the extinction of humanity?
posted by Phil, at 8/14/2008 10:29 AM

We don't have to worry aobut it. anonymous (hello theo, we know it's you by the pomposity quotient) will mean that there iwll be at least ONE person who is heterosexual. the human race is saved.

silly argument.
posted by ben in oakland, at 8/14/2008 10:53 AM

Kant, Ayn Rand's arch enemy

from Rand:

Kant’s expressly stated purpose was to save the morality of self-abnegation and self-sacrifice. He knew that it could not survive without a mystic base—and what it had to be saved from was reason.

Attila’s share of Kant’s universe includes this earth, physical reality, man’s senses, perceptions, reason and science, all of it labeled the “phenomenal” world. The Witch Doctor’s share is another, “higher,” reality, labeled the “noumenal” world, and a special manifestation, labeled the “categorical imperative,” which dictates to man the rules of morality and which makes itself known by means of a feeling, as a special sense of duty.

The “phenomenal” world, said Kant, is not real: reality, as perceived by man’s mind, is a distortion. The distorting mechanism is man’s conceptual faculty: man’s basic concepts (such as time, space, existence) are not derived from experience or reality, but come from an automatic system of filters in his consciousness (labeled “categories” and “forms of perception”) which impose their own design on his perception of the external world and make him incapable of perceiving it in any manner other than the one in which he does perceive it. This proves, said Kant, that man’s concepts are only a delusion, but a collective delusion which no one has the power to escape. Thus reason and science are “limited,” said Kant; they are valid only so long as they deal with this world, with a permanent, pre-determined collective delusion (and thus the criterion of reason’s validity was switched from the objective to the collective), but they are impotent to deal with the fundamental, metaphysical issues of existence, which belong to the “noumenal” world. The “noumenal” world is unknowable; it is the world of “real” reality, “superior” truth and “things in themselves” or “things as they are”—which means: things as they are not perceived by man.

Even apart from the fact that Kant’s theory of the “categories” as the source of man’s concepts was a preposterous invention, his argument amounted to a negation, not only of man’s consciousness, but of any consciousness, of consciousness as such. His argument, in essence, ran as follows: man is limited to a consciousness of a specific nature, which perceives by specific means and no others, therefore, his consciousness is not valid; man is blind, because he has eyes—deaf, because he has ears—deluded, because he has a mind—and the things he perceives do not exist, because he perceives them.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 12:01 PM

You guys - no one chooses to be gay. But they can choose what they will do with that. Noteveryone has to make the same decision.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 12:39 PM

Jason,

I'm not arguing with you on how YOU see things., But what if someone else saw it differently?

What if someone thinks differntly than you do about themselves?

I get it - gay is not a lifestyle, or a behavior, or anything else - it is who you are.

But what if someone doesn't think that?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 12:52 PM

Anonymous at 12:39, you say "You guys - no one chooses to be gay. But they can choose what they will do with that. Noteveryone has to make the same decision."

And Anonymous at 12:52, you say "I get it - gay is not a lifestyle, or a behavior, or anything else - it is who you are.

But what if someone doesn't think that?"

The problem with the (one must think, deliberately) obfuscated language of the poster advert, is that it is suggesting - but not in so many words, than one can by some deliberate course, perhaps a "therapy", alter the orientation of one's sexual DESIRE.

Yes, any person can choose to have sex or not to have sex, whether straight or gay. But what solid evidence is there that a person can alter the orientation of his or her sexual DESIRE by choice?

That is really what is being hinted at between the lines in the poster, and in most "ex-gay" adverts.
posted by Phil, at 8/14/2008 1:28 PM

Phil,

I understand you don't like what is being hinted at.

But what if a person really does see things differently than you do? Should they live as the gay person you want them to be? Or as the person (acting straight, gay or not, confused etc..) they want to be?

It's sort of akin to a conservative christian saying to you - and I think someone blogging here has said it - that it's for your own good to turn away from being gay and act like a heterosexual.

Why is is any better for a gay person to say to another person (who is gay) that "You are to live as I do"

That's like me telling you that you should make all the same decisions that I have made about my life and apply them to yours?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 1:41 PM

Robert,

I agree these groups actively seek to penalize gays through legislation.

Fighht back on their use of the word respect.

If they want respect - then give it back!!

I totally agree with you on that. It burns my insides to know that these people fight against gay rights and protection.

But on the other hand - this is a huge step forward.

I try not to become the beast while fighting against it. Argh!!!
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 1:44 PM

Some of the last few posts have gotten close to the core false premise in the ad.

The ad accuses self-accepting GLBTQ people of not being respectful of the person of ex-gays. That is completely false.

The criticism has been and remains directed at the premise that our sexuality can be changed, should be changed, and the use of coercive measures, like the ban on same-sex marriage and calls to reinstate sodomy laws, to drive people attempt such a change. Over and over again, GLBTQ people, whether public figures or anonymous participants in forums, have consistently respected the humanity of ex-gays even while disagreeing with the ideaology, propoganda and legislative efforts.

GLBTQ people have not sought to criminalize ex-gay therapies, or heterosexuality. GLBTQ people have not sought to use legislation to punish people for trying to change their sexual orientation.

In contrast, PFOX, Exodus, other ex-gay ministries and the conservative ministries that support them, have consistently and pervasively attacked the personhood of GLBTQ human beings, seeking to exert societal pressure to make life as an accepting GLBTQ person so terrible, GLBTQ people will have no choice but to try to change.

The lack of respect for persons is on the side of ex-gay ministries and PFOX, and this ad attempts to project their failing onto GLBTQ people instead.

(PS: For those complaining about people posting anonymously, and clearly several people are - I, at least, use the anonymous feature because I've lost track of which email address and password I set up with google/blogger - not everyone using anonymous is up to no good)
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 2:00 PM

I think the ad is hilarious!

The girl claims to be "ex-gay", because "being gay is a sin", yet she has no problem flashing off that out-of-style eyebrow ring, which is also a so-called "abomination":

"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD" (Leviticus 19:28)

She might as well go back to being a lesbian, because she's already in hot water for that eyebrow piercing.

PFOX are such retards, it's hilarious!
posted by Scott, at 8/14/2008 3:05 PM

anon. then start another google blogger or whatever. Such nonsense. You hit name on the bottom and type in a handle.

Anon:12:52pm. My response to your last statement is that if you do not agree that these ex gays are pathetic sad examples of a whackjob being taken for a ride by people who are equally screwed up around their orientation, then you feel ashamed of being gay. It is real simple. Are there groups for straight people to deny who they are and attempt to say the successfully changed their orientaton. NO THERE IS NOT AND THEREFORE THAT IS PROOF THIS IS NOTHING SHORT OF OPPRESSION DIRECTED AT ONE PARTICULAR MINORITY GROUP.
posted by ewe, at 8/14/2008 3:09 PM

i am so sick of this crap. I feel as though when i am addressing these people who agree with this as some sort psychological rehabilitation, I am having to treat you like you are retarded. this is sick shit and anyone who wants to put themselves through this or support anyone for going through this is FUCKED UP. These people need to deal with their shame in a different way than thinking they are removing a stinking stain. God you people are sick. If you are gay, then your are fucking. Get over it. It is a non issue. Start loving yourself and you will find someone to love outside of yourself soon after. The arrogance of these people to think they are not going to get a backlash from others who do not feel the same way and who know that coming through the other side of self acceptance does not and should not be by way of thinking you can change your sexual orientation. Go live in a damn cave with that manipulative semantics.
posted by ewe, at 8/14/2008 3:17 PM

above comment said "if you are gay then you are fucking gay." I left out the word accidentally because i would NEVER LEAVE THAT OUT BY CHOICE.
posted by ewe, at 8/14/2008 3:21 PM

Ewe,

You are no better than the fundies who tell us to live their way. Sorry but your kind of diversity is narrow and your kind of reality (that everyone must accept yours or they are a whack job) is well about as sane and intelligent as the conservative telling you the same.

Grow up, use critical thinking and stop name calling. What are you - 15?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 3:29 PM

The J & Y study was conducted within a finite group of people over two years - not many years. That finite group of people were relgiously conservative, may or may not have recieved any other cousneling besides sub standard ministry. So the premise that you cannot change based on that study is incomplete. Although, it is the most recent study of it's type.

They did not interview those who had been living as ex gay for several years or those who have married etc....

Not making any other statment here except that the sutdy was no definitive in it's scope. That's all.

Noether have the studies that have not been replicated showing a biological factor or environmental factor for being gay.

So far all we know is squat and that the majority of people who are gay don't change.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 3:42 PM

Phil, I concur with you. To prove the ex-gay claims, it makes you wonder why they've not published anything in the legitimate medical or scientific literature with the evidence? I wonder why there are no ex-straight ministries to prove the point in reverse? Its nothing more than a scam, fleecing vulnerable people who are confused or having serious emotional problems about their natural orientation. Why doesn't the NIH conduct identical studies to refute their claims? The reason is, they know it doesn't work and so does the American Psychiatric Association. How absurd to even think you can pray away the gay. Clearly the people who run these fraudulent businesses are sick, opportunistic money grabbers.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 8/14/2008 4:04 PM

Robert,

I assume you will not try to change to straight? LOL!!!
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 4:15 PM

"anon. then start another google blogger or whatever"

Ewe - your id is basically anonymous as well. Do get a grip.

Most of the ids are essentially anonymous. Complaining about whether or not people give an identity, instead of the points they actually raise, is, as the gamers put it, fail.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 4:22 PM

Hmmmm. Sick, opportunistic, money grabbers - Robert - your concern for others is showing through. Have you ever thought of advertsing to those getting taken in by such charlatan tactics?

There are all sorts of places - bars that charge excessively for a cover fee, real estate agents that only sell in the gay districts, insurance companies that use actuaries against healthy people etc....

And then there are the groups that recieve grants for AIDS programs and pocket most of the money for their "administrative" fees and costs, the educational outreach programs to gay youth in schools that somehow end up spending excessively on printing costs and travel fees.

I'm sorry, but there are alot of people in all segments of society who are living high on the hog because good folks believe some story about helping others. Let the buyer beware? Caveat Emptor?

Somehow, you seem to think that other people cannot make decisions for themselves about their own lives.

I'd better have you come over and tell me what to do, quickly! My life will turn into a mess unless I follow someone else's desires.

It's just too funny. All these things being said can be turned right around onto the very people saying them. It's too funny - it's such an obvious double standard I'm surprised that the intelligent people here aren't seeing that.

Or maybe the people writing here are too young to know the gay history that we went through in the 70's, and especially the 80's.

What's absurd is that gays today are doing the very same thing that fundies did yesteryear. And no one seems to know that?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 4:31 PM

Anonymous at 1:41, you are badly misunderstanding or misapplying me.

You say:

"I understand you don't like what is being hinted at.

But what if a person really does see things differently than you do? Should they live as the gay person you want them to be? Or as the person (acting straight, gay or not, confused etc..) they want to be?"

No no no. I am totally FOR the right of any person, gay or straight to choose to live a celibate lifestyle.

What I am AGAINST is the fact that the advert hints that the orientation of sexual DESIRE can be changed.

If, in fact, that was actually possible, then I would be FOR a person's right to choose to undertake the process leading to such a change. But it is NOT actually possible, as far as I have been able to determine. So the advert poster hints at a LIE and THAT is what I object to.

(I should say that I know the Jones and Yarhouse, Spitzer and Schroeder & Shidlo studies and have read the "testimonies" on pfox, gaytostraight and other such sites).

It would be an honest enough thing for an advert poster to say "My belief is that it's best for me not to be sexually active and it's my right to choose that". But the poster is DIShonest because of the obfuscatory language, which instead hints at unattainable promises.
posted by Phil, at 8/14/2008 4:40 PM

robert, nyc at 4:04, thank you for your concurrence with my thoughts!
I like being concurred with!

Your comments at the end of your post are hard, certainly. But in view of the number of years that "therapies" to change the orientation of sexual desire have been sold now, and in view of the rigour with which they have been examined (especially in Mr. Besen's own exemplary work) and in view of the lack of any solid body of evidence to which the "therapists" can point, one has to feel that they are EITHER very deceitful OR culpably ignorant.

An interesting factor that Mr. Besen points out, is that "Therapy" is for the well-off, while the poor resort to the "ministries", i.e. "pray away the gay".

Often, too the distinction between the two is very blurred. Mr. Alan Medinger, for example, associates himself with "NARTH", who supposedly promote a clinical therapy approach besed on a supposed scientific understanding of causation. Yet on the NARTH website, Mr. Medinger says that his sexual desires were changed in a single night by "a whole bunch of miracles" at a prayer meeting.
posted by phil, at 8/14/2008 4:54 PM

acutally you could conduct a study where ones genitals are rigged to meters, to detect arousal to see if in fact someone is attracted to the opposite sex/same sex or not. I wonder if a study like this has ever been preformed on "post gays"
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 5:05 PM

Phil,

As much as I hate to say it - there are people out there who claim to have changed. Who am I to say - No.

There are also some out there who say that they have changed enough to live satisfactorily as a heterosexual. Wh am I to say - No.

There are some out ther who have tried to change and nothing has changed but they don't want to live as gay (for lack of a better word - but you know what I mean) Who am I to say - No.

I think the rhetoric that change is possible is being realized as change is possible but what change will occur is not gauranteed. A person may change their approach to their own sexuality, an attitude about sexuality, some will embrace their sexuality as it is without seeking to change that part.

I know that gays don't like to hear this kind of openess to let people do whatever damn fool thing they want to do - but who am I to say - No.

The opinions are out there. Let that person read those opinions and decide for themselves.

Really - I don't the kind of energy to go around monitoring every odd bizarre thing people do. I'm not Wiccan - but hey - some follow that system. And they spend a lot of money on talismans. I'm not a Buddhist - but then there are those who think it is just great and they spend a lot of money on retreats. Or some swami follower type person. Whatever.

I don't really think gays care so much about the people attending these organizations as much as they cannot stand the message that being gay is a sickness. That kind of message influences all of us. I can't stand that message either and I get very angry when I hear someone going down that line of thought.

But hey - if you want to move your sexuality, attitudes in a direction of your religious faith - go ahead and do - just don't drag me down your path.

And I do respect that.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 5:07 PM

Anon at 5:45

I'm sure that test has been done. Funny thing happens - a lot of people will see images and respond not because of the gender image but because certain images arouse us - IE: two different sexed people having sex will arouse a lot of people - gay or straight.

The test is as fallable as the test maker -

Are they testing images, experiences, is there a base line test before gay experiences, etc... do the men look gay, do the women look gay, etc.. does that have an effect on the person who's body is being tested? There are alot of questions.

The problem with the tests is that there's so much going on when sexuality is being observed.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 5:12 PM

Phil,

I think you have a really good point about what to say on that poster. Excellent idea!!!
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 5:14 PM

"Jason,

I'm not arguing with you on how YOU see things., But what if someone else saw it differently?

What if someone thinks differntly than you do about themselves?

I get it - gay is not a lifestyle, or a behavior, or anything else - it is who you are.

But what if someone doesn't think that?"

Fine by me, but science is on my side. But whatever, they can think whatever they want to. People think we never landed on the moon, that elvis is still alive. People have all sorts of nutty beliefs. They are welcome to believe these things, that does not make these things true. There is no evidence that sexual orientation is changeable. All the evidence shows is that if someone tries really really really hard they can ignore their homosexual desires and in a few cases successfully mate with someone of the opposite sex and produce children.
I at no point said everyone who's gay should be like me. Despite the fact that I am awesome, the world would be a really boring ass place if everyone was the same. I'm all for people finding their happiness. And here's the part where I differ drastically from PFOX, AFA, FOF, etc --- I'm not going to try to stop them, either. PFOX wants respect? Then get out of my bedroom, stop lobbying the government to remove gay rights, stop pushing for a federal marriage amendment, stop testifying in civil rights cases against gay people, and stop opposing hate crimes laws. If this were some little support group that doesn't get involved in politics or public policy, I'd wish them well and walk away shaking my head. But that's not who we're dealing with. They want respect? Respect is earned, and you don't earn it by lying about gay people and selling snake oil to impressionable people. No one changes, they just alter their perception of themselves.
posted by Jason, at 8/14/2008 5:19 PM

"Jason,

I'm not arguing with you on how YOU see things., But what if someone else saw it differently?

What if someone thinks differntly than you do about themselves?

I get it - gay is not a lifestyle, or a behavior, or anything else - it is who you are.

But what if someone doesn't think that?"

Fine by me, but science and fact are on my side. But whatever, they can think whatever they want to. People think we never landed on the moon, that elvis is still alive. People have all sorts of nutty beliefs. They are welcome to believe these things, that does not make these things true. There is no evidence that sexual orientation is changeable. All the evidence shows is that if someone tries really really really hard they can ignore their homosexual desires and in a few cases successfully mate with someone of the opposite sex and produce children.
I at no point said everyone who's gay should be like me. Despite the fact that I am awesome, the world would be a really boring ass place if everyone was the same. I'm all for people finding their happiness. And here's the part where I differ drastically from PFOX, AFA, FOF, etc --- I'm not going to try to stop them, either. PFOX wants respect? Then get out of my bedroom, stop lobbying the government to remove gay rights, stop pushing for a federal marriage amendment, stop testifying in civil rights cases against gay people, and stop opposing hate crimes laws. If this were some little support group that doesn't get involved in politics or public policy, I'd wish them well and walk away shaking my head. But that's not who we're dealing with. They want respect? Respect is earned, and you don't earn it by lying about gay people and selling snake oil to impressionable people. No one changes, they just alter their perception of themselves.
posted by Jason, at 8/14/2008 5:19 PM

Anonymous at 5:07 p.m, you will see that the white words in the middle of the advertising poster copy say "I CHOSE TO CHANGE FROM GAY TO STRAIGHT"

What do you think the lady means by that?

Do you think she means the change is now complete and in her past, and she is now straight?

Do you think she means that she has just STARTED on a path she believes will lead to change of desire?

What do you think she means by "gay" and "straight"?

(These questions are not facetious. I have discovered that to say "I'm gay" has a different meaning in the UK from at least parts of the USA. Here in the UK it would tend to be a reference only to ORIENTATION of DESIRE. In other words, a person who had never had any sexual encounter with any person at all, but was completely a virgin, could say "I'm gay" and everyone would understand the person to be referring to DESIRE, not ACTIVITY. In parts of the USA, I believe, the term is used differently).
posted by Phil, at 8/14/2008 5:23 PM

Or how about sexaully active with my same gender....?

That's to you Phil - sorry - a call came in and I to take it.

And as far as Medinger goes. There are people who have that experience - but the majority certainly don't and we know that. Perhaps a qualifying statment with those kinds of remarks would be a good idea.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 5:24 PM

Jason,

I think that everyone agrees that PFOX, AFA, CWA, FOTF LWON EXODUS etc.... ought to get out of other peoples bedrooms and not lobby against gay rights.

However, their ad is still tons better than their old way of thinking.

And - the world would be totally awesome if it had more of you LOL!!!!

Yeah - I'd get bored. LOL!!!
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 5:59 PM

To whichever anonymous posted message to me. You are so rediculous. You must be one of those retarded people i am talking about if you cannot figure out i am posting what i post. You will have to stay in your delusion by yourself. Your arrogance is not funny. Sign your name or handle or don't but don't pretend that when you address me i am not distinguishable from you and an infinite amount of other anonymous posts.
posted by ewe, at 8/14/2008 7:05 PM

to the second anonymous wimp that addressed me about being 15 etc. : No i am well over that age and i am gay and i do not cater to anyone who feels that it is ok to put down people for being gay. you are the one who has issues by comparing those that hate themselves and will not accept reality to someone like me who feels homosexuality is equal to heterosexuality. I do not care for your dismissive comments posing as topics for discussion. I am telling these ex gays to fuck off. I will not listen to this nonsense about changing sexual orientation and if you want to, you must not be dealing well with your own. This is not about different points of views. That would be like me saying to those that lynched african americans to take a time out, I want to have a pow wow and a chit chat about what it all means. Go elswhere. anywhere except in my face because i have no problem spitting at people who insult me because of their own low self esteem. Figuratively speaking of course. And more importantly is the fact that a 15 year old gay teenager needs to hear me say that they are BEAUTIFUL, WONDERFUL, FANTASTIC AND PERFECT JUST THE WAY THEY FUCKING ARE, not you or your defending this evil displacement of ones reality and core of what they cannot accept. I will gladly have you hate me because apparently i do not care all that much for you so who gives a shit. Go judge someone that will bow down to you, it isn't me.
posted by ewe, at 8/14/2008 7:25 PM

Ewe - then don't respond to me.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 8:05 PM

Am i a bitch? I mean bitchy? Am i rude? I think i am just doing my part in promoting the gay agenda. That would be equality as well as tearing down the fabric of American family values of course.
posted by ewe, at 8/14/2008 8:07 PM

Ewe - then don't respond to me.

You're like that Marcel guy - only worse.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 8:09 PM

Ewe - then don't respond to me.

You're like that Marcel guy - only worse.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 8:10 PM

LOL!!! Ewe - I don't think you're part of anyone's agenda.

Safe to say you are your own person.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 8:25 PM

Anon at 5:45

Of course the "ex-gay" would refuse on moral grounds. Having said that, exodus should engage in some sort of lie detection penal pressuse sensor test to prove that they do have success. But they won't because they would be exposed as frauds. You would have more luck trying to get the Enzyte penis pill people to agree to a pier revied clinical trial of their product and then publish the results.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 9:10 PM

They might refuse because they had a pornography addiction in the past and taking such a test would trigger that actvity again.

Personally, an alcoholic should not be required to walk into bars either just to prove a point.

Nor should a rape victim have to sit through a rape scene just to prove she/ he is over it. No one ever totally gets over a past.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/14/2008 11:59 PM

How's it comming with your porn addiction?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/15/2008 12:26 AM

"Personally, an alcoholic should not be required to walk into bars either just to prove a point".

Ah yes, the comparison with alcoholism is always such a telling one, such a giveaway. It is an admission that "ex-gays" still desire their own sex - that the ORIENTATION of their DESIRE has not changed, just their sexual ACTIVITY. That, of course, would be fine if it was all that the "therpists" promised - techniques for staying "on the wagon", i.e., celibate. But it is not. The adverts, like that under discussion, suggest that "therapy" will change the orientation of your sexual desire - not simply help you not to give in to the same desire you always had.
posted by Phil, at 8/15/2008 4:15 AM

Crazy Anonymous:

You are posting too much. This is not your website, it is mine. You need to police your number of comments and get a life, or you will be banned. Please keep your comments to a reasonable number. I don't like to enforce comment rules, but I will if you can't show respect for this site.

Thank you
posted by Wayne Besen, at 8/15/2008 9:42 AM

Phil - I didn't mean it to sound the way it did. It's just that if you believe someone to have a genetic trait that leads them to something - asking them to partkae of that activity (after they have said they don't want to ) is cruel. We may not like their answers or believe they are not wholly truthful. That's fine. Putting someone through something they deem "not good" for them - just doesn't bode well with me.

Wayne,

You can read the ISP's of everyone and yo know damn well where the posts are coming from. anon is not one person.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/15/2008 1:12 PM

Anonymous at 1:12, I think I'm not quite getting you.

I am absolutely in favour of an individual's right to choose to live a celibate life.

I am absolutely against organisations telling people that a clinical methodology can alter the orientation of their sexual desire, if that is untrue.
posted by Phil, at 8/15/2008 1:38 PM

Phil,

I, too , agree that a person has the right to choose their life habits, behavior.

If you want to be celibate or try to move towards a functioning heterosexual life although homosexual feelings will be present (some, all, rarely) at times - then go for it. I really don't know the range of feelings a person can experience (since there are 6 billion and counting people) I've heard a lot of varying stories of change, sexual fluidity - mostly in women - etc...

So, who am I to say what can be accomplished. Hec - I KNOW I cannot climb Mt Everest. But some old person, missing a leg or two, with other ailments just might accomplish that. I have no doubt it has everything to do with attitude or at least more so than the physical. As far as sexuality goes - I can't by my own standards limit a person to my own views. If someone wants to be celibate - go for it. If they want to try and develop hetersexuality to some extent - go for it - obviously some do (how many is questionable). And on and on.

I don't believe the gay tag line that once gay - always gay. There are just too many stories of diverse sexual experiences for that to be true for all people. And I don't believe the christian rhetoric that change is possible for everyone. Again - there are just too many stories of diverse expereinces and what not to think that is true.

I would like to see more open and without judgement (from both sides) conversations, dialogue, acceptance of differences without insulting eachother going on.

We're not there. I dream. I hope. What can I say?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/15/2008 3:15 PM

i just wish the girl in the ad would renounce the hipster-doofus eyebrow ring. that, i'd respect.

and i'd also like to challenge all of the anonymous posters to grow a set and show their faces. if you don't have the balls to stand behind what you say, stop talking!
posted by nimbusthegreat, at 8/15/2008 4:49 PM

I agree - these ex-gays try to act so cool - like Chad Thompson, Alan Chambers and this chick in the ad. However, they are a bunch of faux hipsters who make a mockery of their appearances, if not their pathetic, suffocating lives.

Finally, these Anonymous posters are scum. They lie through their teeth and don't have the nut sack to be open about who they are.

I guess when one is a lowlife closet case liar in real life, the sleazy, dishonest behavior is easily transferable to the Internets.

Jake
posted by Anonymous, at 8/15/2008 5:03 PM

Jake - I'm sure glad Phil and I can talk and converse instead of theusual name calling, insulting rhetoric that comes out of either extreme position.

Thanks for sharing. You sound just like those people in society - way back when - when they used to talk about gay people in the same manner. Wow - you've come a long way baby!

Good for you. You sure are a demonstration of the all the efforts your gay brothers and sisters fought for - you right to be an arse.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/15/2008 5:37 PM

Anonymous, he has a point. It is morally reprehensible for you to spread your hate and not reveal yourself. You are just proving yourself a big closet case.

How sad.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/15/2008 6:10 PM

Dude - I've not spread any hate. It's kind of irresponsible of you to make such accusations when it is obvious there is more than one anon here.

And no - by the obvious statments of some of the people here - I don't give out a name. You can understand that - remember when we being gay meant being in the closet because people would say, do creul things? I do.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/15/2008 7:27 PM

haahahahhaahhaahhaahhahaahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahha

Asshole Anonymous is playing victim and then trying to evoke sympathy by playing the gay rights card. What a fucking loser doosh.

Look fuck face. Gay people were and are beaten and fired and murdered for their sexual orientation. Ex-gay not only don't exist, but when they lie and say they have changed they are technically straight. This means that they can marry the person they are allegedly attracted to. Serve in the military. Hold hands with their spouse without having to worry about having their face smashed in.

The reason you won't post your name is because you are cowardly piece of shit. Please don't compare your absurd, carnival-like experience to what out gay people face every day.

You are a circus freak and a joke who is throwing his life in the garbage as a result of brainwashing.

Fuck you.

Geoff
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 9:53 AM

Anonymous at 3:15pm, I don't disagree with what you said in that 3:15pm post.

Do you know of any person, especially a male, who though a chosen clinical therapy process, has been able to replace all his homosexual desire with heterosexual desire, and no longer feels desire for his own sex?

If you do, I would be most interested to hear what the clinical therapy was which accomplished that, and perhaps to correspond with that person.

I've never been able to find any such person.
posted by Phil, at 8/16/2008 12:51 PM

Phil,

I don't know any person who has been through the "change process" for lack of a better word - who does not have memories or thoughts ever again about homosexuality. To what extent - is different - I suppose for each person.

Not to compare homosexuality to something bad - but I don't know a man or woman who has been through rape counseling who doesn't think of that again either - epsecially if they had an orgasm during the rape.

Sexuality is very complex and difficult to undertand.

No one - takes away (as in erases)their experiences from their life - ever. We can only add to it. This goes for anything.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 2:24 PM

These arn't thoughts or memories, they are desires, hypocrit cock craver. The extent that you can supress these desires is based solely in the degree that you are bisexual. The vast majority of gays are not bisexual to any significent extent. This is not about change but rather supression. Let's be honest about this. I have never met an ex gay who was not religiously motivated,which means they are changing BEHAVIOR not desire.

It need to be mentioned that I have met many gays who have left behind broken families because they misled a woman to believe that they were straight. This is immoral. Every woman deserves a pussy lusting straight man, not some cock craver. Sorry but fish don't fly. YOu have but one life to live. Live it honestly. I am gay and in a very happy relationship for 15 years.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 2:56 PM

Anon at 2:56

Okay you see things differently -

Obviously you don't deal with people who have sexual trauma or sexual conflict of any sort.

And yes, I agree, many men have misled women and families and have been in sham marriages. Those men have left their marriages and accpeted their homosexuality.

Maybe you are right about the bisexuality aspect - I am not sure. I don't know those answers. I'm not sure anyone can say for certain what degree bisexulity plays or does not play in the whole issue.

And it is sad that people are being swayed.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 3:25 PM

Anonymous at 2:24pm, thank you for your further response.

Sexual desire is indeed complex, and much scientific work remains to be done, no doubt, in finding out about it.

Yet it's simple enough, I think, to know and to say whom you find attractive, whom you desire sexually. Without knowing just how or where in the body the sex drive originates biochemically, I can tell you very simply and truthfully that in my own life of some five decades I have never had a sexual or erotic thought, feeling, desire or dream for a female (I am male). That's simple enough, in its way!

I don't think your example, of the memory of rape, is at all a good one. Undoubtedly many heterosexuals and homosexuals have had bad experiences in the past - perhaps the horror of rape, or of childhood abuse by a family member (generally a married man). But I think to bring such an example in at this point is to muddy the waters somewhat.

I am wondering what you feel might be the case for a person who was exclusively homosexual in desire and remained totally celibate, never having any sexual experience at all. Do you feel that such a person would be able, by some clinical therapy methodology, to alter the orientation of his sexual desire completely? There would be no past sexual experience to look back on and have feelings about. I can't find any such example. My inclination is to believe,after much searching, that the reason for this is that they don't exist
posted by Phil, at 8/16/2008 3:27 PM

Phil,

There are some people who just are.

We really don't know enough about sexual development to make definitive decisions about who can change and wh cannot change.

I know for women - sexuality seems more fluid. I don't know why. For men, it seems those who are gay are more in numbers and more in definition than women. I don't know why.

I think if someone wants to try and change - go for it. I think if a person finds it a useless exrcise - then so be it. I have changed my opinions over time - and I've never argued that a person has a right to choose that for themelves. No one can choose what you "should" decide on your sexuality except the person whom it affects - you.

I hope, as we move ahead in time, scientific understanding and discovery, that we will know more in the future both for those who want to try and change and those who accept who they are as is.

Phil, thank you for being civil and open to discussion. I wish more people were like you.

But what do you think about people who are sexual criminals - can they change? Should we try?

Is heterosexuality or homosexuality all that diffrent than any other sexuality a person might call themselves?? I wonder - I really do wonder. Just a thought.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 4:09 PM

The only reason I brought the rape issue up is because a lot of people don't know that rape sometimes brings people to orgasm. Having said that, we cannot equate orgasm with sexual pleasure. It seems that a lot of people assign orgasm with desire. That's not true.

And then there are people who after being raped fantasize about it -but do you think they really want to b raped again??? Not from the stories I have heard. But it is very upsetting to the person going through this.

Now, I am not equating homosexuality with rape. Not at all. However, there are people who do read the bible in such a way that their homosexual feelings are as upsetting to them. I'm not talking about you, I'm not talking about other people - I'm talking about the person who really experiences this as such. I'm not going try and change their view because their religion is far more important to them than their sexual desire. In essence, there are people who put GOD (r their version of God) above anything lse. They are really in conflict. Just as the woman/man who has been raped is in conflict. Again - I am NOT saying tht rapeis equivalent to SOME PEOPLE the conflict is just as huge.

They have choices - to change their whole perspective on their God and religion. (May people do this) Try to change their sexuality. Or to keep their God, and accept their sexuality and remain celibate.

The feeling are that strong. Maybe not for you, or me, or a bunch of other people. But some people the feeligns are that strong.

That's what I'm tring to say. I'm not equating an event to be like homosexuality. I am equating the feelings so you can get an idea of what someone might be feeling. So we can empathise with them - whether or not we agree ith the origin of those feelings.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 4:20 PM

LOL!!!!! Phil - I cannot even begin to tell the thoughts I have had!!
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 4:28 PM

Anonymous at 4:09pm, you say "Phil, thank you for being civil and open to discussion. I wish more people were like you".

Why thank you, I do my poor best... (looks shyly up from eyes modestly downcast).

"But what do you think about people who are sexual criminals - can they change? Should we try"?

Do you mean persons who have actually committed sexual crimes, or person who feel the urge to do so but have not? There is, as I understand it, a very high rate of recidivism among those who commit sex crimes and are caught and punished. I've not read widely on the topic and cannot cite statistics.

"Is heterosexuality or homosexuality all that diffrent than any other sexuality a person might call themselves?? I wonder - I really do wonder. Just a thought".

A few years ago the medical page in one of the UK's quality newspapers carried an account by the Doctor who was the paper's medical advisor of how he'd received a letter from a person who felt sexually attracted to children. The person said that he had never made any sexual advances to any child nor ever would, but he wanted to know if there was any kind of support group for persons in his position. It was a sincere enquiry. The paper's Doctor wrote that he had not been able to track down any kind of support group for such persons. The onus is on such unfortunate individuals to endeavour to suppress, and never to act on, such desires. (For the record, AS FAR AS I RECALL, the newspaper was The Independent and the Doctor Dr Fred Kavalier, but I cannot be absolutely certain).
posted by Phil, at 8/16/2008 5:57 PM

Anonymous at 4:20pm you say "They have choices - to change their whole perspective on their God and religion. (May people do this) Try to change their sexuality. Or to keep their God, and accept their sexuality and remain celibate".

Yes.

You say "However, there are people who do read the bible in such a way that their homosexual feelings are as upsetting to them. I'm not talking about you..."

Yes you are.

Would it not be a cruel deception, Anonymous, if a "therapist" took money from a person on the understanding that "therapy" could change that person's sexual orientation, if there were no evidence that it could, or ever had, for anyone?

"Expectation postponed is making the heart sick", notes the writer at Proverbs 13:12, and Hebrew prophet of old, Isaiah, asked "Why do you people keep paying out money for what is not bread, and why is your toil for what results in no satisfaction?".

The sellers of "therapy" to change the orientation of sexual desire have had ample time in which to amass evidence of clinical safety and efficacy, but have signally failed to do so. If they are selling what does not work, then does that not make life much more difficult and frustrating for their victims?

(Please note that I am specifically talking of "therapy" aimed at changing the orientation of a person's sexual desire - not any other kind of therapy or psychological or psychiatric support).
posted by Phil, at 8/16/2008 6:12 PM

I don't think a therapist should make any garauntees of any sort for any therapy. Period. It doesn't depend on the motivation of the client, or the failure of the client or anything else than - sometimes - therapy does not work out for a person.

However, if a person chose to - they could talk to others who had been through the process, evaluate for themselves, and make a decision. And be careful in their evaluation.

As much as it offends some people, there are people who have had success - I cannot meaure that success, I cannot define what that success means, where they started from, where they have gone to, etc....

But, yes, I agree that it is unethical to say that therapy will change a person's sexual orientation. Sometimes it has an effect that is saitsfactory for the client. Sometimes it harms a client. What occurs in those therapy sessions - I don't know. I do know that EST, or some of the other insane methods I have heard of - are inhumane. I don't know that there is anyone or any group doing that except for depression? And, I am oppossed to the things I hear about in the ex gay "half way" homes?? Just - ridiculous!! But again - some people gained some value from those places. So.....?

(I did not know I was talking about you) Do you still feel uncomfortable with your homosexuality? And if so, how do you resolve your conflict?

I'm going out for awhile.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 7:26 PM

womens sexuality is not more fluid, it just that a woman can physically fake it. For a man, either you can get it up or you can't.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 8:39 PM

Anon at 8:39,

Lisa Diamond wrote a book on this very subject.

Maybe reading it would be a good idea??

Or maybe all the women she interviewed were lying, wrong about themselves, or maybe - just maybe - not like you? It might be a consideration - unless of course you know all the women in the world? And you can verify that?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/16/2008 11:13 PM

Anonymous at 8:39, you say "womens sexuality is not more fluid, it just that a woman can physically fake it. For a man, either you can get it up or you can't".

I think, respectfully, that that's too simple.

It does appear that according to such scientific work as has been done to date, the statistical picture for female sexuality is more complex than for male. (See "Born Gay, The Psychobiology of Sex Orientation" by Wilson & Rahman, Peter Owen Publishing, 2005).

"Getting it up", too, is not a reliable indicator of attraction. A horny 17 year old youth (or 70 year old man) can "get it up" and stimulate it to completion with his own hand, but that doesn't mean he's in love with his hand! It is quite possible for a man - gay or straight - to obtain the requisite pysiological responses to impregnate a woman for whom he feels no vestige of sexual desire, just because the genital area is so replete with nerves that physical stimulation of any sort will "make the plumbing work".

That is how, in history, men who had to make "advantageous" marriages for wealth or other family considerations, to women they didn't love, were nonetheless able to produce heirs.
posted by Phil, at 8/17/2008 8:44 AM

true of some men anan 8:44, but I have no sexual interest in women and could not get it up if my life depended on it. I also hate strawberry ice cream and no amount of prayer or therapy will change that either.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/17/2008 12:25 PM

Anon who hates strawberry ice cream. Just because you feel a certain way does not mean that everyone feels that way. We really have little information on sexuality to take the experience of one and glabally apply that to all men an women.

BTW, I love strawberries but don't like strawberry ice cream either.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/17/2008 1:31 PM

it's because strawberry ice cream is always made from artifical flavouring. yuck
posted by Anonymous, at 8/17/2008 11:25 PM

yuck! Strawberries with ice cream however is great.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/18/2008 12:29 PM

Those of you who hate Strawberry Ice Cream:

Clearly this is not as it should be! Choose change. You need reparative therapy for Ice Cream Preference.

I offer group therapy sessions and individual counselling, each at $125 per session. The minimum timescale I suggest for change, and effective strawberry ice cream functioning, is two years.

Hundreds of thousands (or, thousands, or hundreds, depending which interview I happen to be in) have benefitted. Change is possible!
posted by Phil, at 8/18/2008 1:49 PM

So-called "ex-gays" are usually losers. They drank or drugged themselves silly and got fucked up the ass while high. Now, they are bitter and wonder why no on found them appealing.

What we are talking about are not normal, healthy, functioning people. We are talking about sick individuals who are not like most gays. They need serious psychiatric help.

So-called ex-gays are just mentally weak people who desperately want to fit in. They can't handle being a minority, so they try to gain acceptance by playing the role of ex-gays. They are the homosexual version of Uncle Toms.

By behaving this way, they defile themselves and the gay community. They are just pure filth and garbage and they should be shunned for their treason.

It is no surprise that an unethical, sleaze-prone group like Christians are the ones who would embrace such slime. Both ex-gays and Christians are unbalanced, hyper-emotional people who cry at the drop of a hat. These people need to mind their own fucking business and get a God damed life.

Leave me and my lover alone and stop trying to pass laws and discriminate us. Just because you are miserable scum does not mean you should dump the shit you call your so-called life on us.

Melvin
posted by Anonymous, at 8/18/2008 2:24 PM

I agree with u Melvin. Ex-gays are one notch above bums and criminals. They are these slippery people who are mostly losers.

Look at Mike Haley and John Paulk. Paulk was a drag queen and worked at Kinkos and Haley had no real job to speak of. Next thing you know, these nobodies are speaking at national press conferences for Focus on the Family.

It shows they will prop up anyone. Look at Randy Thomas from Exodus. He is also a real loser and has no accomplishments. Yet, they have also put him on the stage, although he is also a lowlife.

Zeke (L.A.)
posted by Anonymous, at 8/18/2008 2:39 PM

Phil,
I am elated. I am a strawberry ice crream hater also. Everyone in my family loves it and serves it at every occasion. The good news you bring me that with therapy I can come to love it gives me hope. I hope to be able to reach a point where I crave it. But if I can only reach a point where I can spoon it into my mouth without wincing, I'll at least be able to fit in at family functions. Thank you, thank you. when can we start?
posted by Anonymous, at 8/18/2008 3:47 PM

That Anonymous would spend thousands of dollars and years of his second tier "life" to nibble at Strawberry ice cream off of a spoon to please family members, tells you all you need to know about his screwy mentality.

What a L-O-S-E-R
posted by Anonymous, at 8/18/2008 4:56 PM

Phil,

I don't know. I'vehad to deal with prentending to like chocolate ice cream my whole life. I finally came to a place where I could be free and say it - I LOVE VANILLA ICE CREAM!! Changing that would be like chaign the stripes on a tiger!! It just cannot be doe. LOL!!!!!

I have grown to love frsh ruit w/ my vanilla ice cream.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/18/2008 5:46 PM

Indeed, I can't TELL you how my eelings hurt sometimes......
posted by Phil, at 8/18/2008 6:05 PM

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
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Anonymous at 5:46pm, I'm so glad you feel that you are finally free to express your true feelings about ice cream preference!

There can be little doubt that living a lie (perhaps that is too strong a term, perhaps "years of tacit deceit" would be better) regarding liking chocolate ice cream, will have been a huge strain and will have taken a toll on your equanimity.

Now that you feel that you are free to be open about your vanilla flavour preference, I am sure you will feel a great relief.

But wouldn't it be good if your REPRESENTED preference for chocolate ice cream could be made REAL instead of just a pretence? In that way you could fall into line with the expectation of society!

To this end, I think I may form NARTICP, the National Association for Research and Therapy for Ice Cream Preference.

Like another body with a somewhat similar acronymn, we won't actually carry out any primary research, despite it being in the title, nor will we publish any peer-reviewed clinical outcomes in any reputable clinical journal, nor will we keep or publish any verified figures for longitudinal clinical outcomes or in any way demonstrate safety or efficacy.

In this way, NARTICP should make a lot of money.
posted by Phil, at 8/19/2008 7:46 AM

LOL!!!! Oh, you should have heard the gasp in unison (sp?/) from my family at the dinner table!!! I as so ashamed but resolved to hold my own.

Yes, my parents tried to tell me that I didn't have the right experiences with chocolate, that my appreciation for chocolate was underdeveloped, that they too had some vanilla ideas at one time but grew to understand the true value of chocolate.

I tried. I turned to chocolate shake drinks, chocolate syrup on vanilla, etc... but nothing worked. I engrossed myself in chocolate histories etc...

I always returned to vanilla. Sometimes I like it with spanish peanuts and bananas - but I really love it - vanilla alone!!

My parents eventually found that my love for vanilla was in me. After several years of coaxing, eye rolling, and taunting from my siblings, my mother first - and then the rest grew accustomed to my strange delights and watched as I enjoyed my vanilla ice cream. Slowly, thier horror at my spectacle has turned to acceptance.

I don't think my siblings will ever understand, and they still make excuses for me and always prepare their friends before they meet me. But it is an oddity they have grown to accept.

There is no real place for me at church picnics, office get togethers, or family reunions. I quietly decline all offers for chocolate ice cream - knowing that vanilla awaits me at home.

LOL!!!! Thanks Phil for the light heartedness.

Truly, I know how difficult it is to be different.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/19/2008 3:25 PM

Well you chocolate and vanilla lusters are all going to HELL. Only Strawberry is divine. With prayer to the almighty, you will come to instantly love Strawberry. But you must repent of your love for delicious, I mean vile chocolate and Vanilla.
posted by Anonymous, at 8/19/2008 4:27 PM

Hahahahahahha

I wish more people could understand it as an ice cream issue.

Really. Why does it matter? People are people.

Some are scumbags - but those are everywhere - gay, straight, church goers, etc...

And some people are really cool. Again they can be anywhere.

This is vanilla signing off. Dreading the onsluaght of strawberry ice cream eaters who hate me.
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